i know about 15 gimmicks&routines (the basic old school stuff most of us use...like the cube, lying game, c vs u smiles, best friends test, etcetera) and 2 self-made dhv stories. and i do so well with it... even after bad openers i plow through with this stuff (as long as i never let the conversation pause and stack them after each other quickly enough). its becoming addictive, but also boring at the same time because its always the same.

now... tonight i tried to sarge without any of those routines and tried to make up stuff on the spot, but all the sparks&energy that i normally have where gone and all the conversations just slowly faded into nothing. its like i lost my superpowers and became normal again. i'm not a boring nerd, and am very social, but it seems if you dont have gimmicks in club game, its very hard to keep their attention!!
how can you keep attention during club game (with all the distractions) without fun routines??

what is the answer:
- learn more routines (so it isnt boring and nobody catches you on always doing the same thing)
- learn the secret to natural game (and then what the hell is it??)

For me, it all comes down to comfort. If you are truly comfortable when talking to a girl, then conversation will flow naturally. This can be called inner game, experience, charisma, etc... If you feel that you are on an even playing field with the girls you are talking to, if you have the frame that you don't want anything from them and are not affected by visual beauty, then it will be natural.

I started out with the scripts in mind, and all the tricks and stuff that Mystery and Style presented. I really didn't like this though because it felt disingenuous and it made the 'target' seem more like a prize you won if you played correctly, instead of a person that you had an instant interest in and then developed an emotion connection with after. This is one of the pitfalls of heavily structured game. It dissociates you from the interaction, and as such does not improve your social skills and true conversational competence.

I think that real game is inner game, the feeling of self worth, of value. If you feel at a deep level that you do not deserve to be in the presence of this person and imagine her on that pedestal, then you won't be able to hold up conversation without canned crutches. It's a really intangible concept, but when you are here it's just like talking to a buddy or an old friend you haven't seen in ages. You automatically pick up on new conversational threads.

An example would be if she told you she is taking Argentinean dance classes, then you could take that thread automatically and go off on how you love South America and your adventures there, or how you took some dance classes some time, or even just relating to the feeling of being free as when she does when she dances. Everything just flows when you are comfortable with someone, and nothing has to be forced. If you want to get to this place, then studying material such as NLP (a new passion of mine which has helped my inner self immensely), RSD: Blueprint, Hypnotica, and many other inner game material you can find will help greatly. Good luck.

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Some artists need rehearsal more than others

SO you went out without your crutches/training wheels on and got stage fright cos you felt unprepared?
You are obviously tired of canned material and that was your first try at Natural game ? so like when you first started it will take time to relax.

Stop TRYING to make up on the spot more canned material.

As Plethora said about comfort and connections these will only come with time, ya gonna havta go Cold Turkey on your old ways and find your own balance at Natural game.

You were born with it so why not relax and doggy paddle for awhile till it starts to flow, dont look for the same opener types you used to use .
Try observing your target and connecting with her style or lack of and ounce you start talking stop THINKING and after a few times you will enjoy the convos and so will your targets.

Check out more Natural Game articles and see what is offered.
Good luck

I'd suggest keeping rutines or gambits as topic creators and then freestyle off of them. That's fun and still leaves you with support.

you guys are talking in a way as if i am a total unsocial nerd and cant talk. i can do conversations about anything and i even do them in "the most prentious high value clubs", i can open and stay in convo with the most stuck up bitches, i can always make fun with anybody, men, UGs or HBs... i'm not intimidated by beauty either... for me its all the same...

BUT.. conversations just dont seem that charged like when i do routines with high-octane routine material....its much harder naturally... maybe in a low key day game setting any comforting stuff will work for me, but in a highly competitive club environment i need an edge like the routines give me.

right now i think i should just learn more routines, so there is more variation and then i mix&match it a bit with my own natural game (go from there so to speak).. but always have the routines as an initiator (or fallback strategy when things get boring all of a sudden), but thats still not natural game, its purely routine game. no routine game can be without some natural responses.. you cant prepare for everything... routine game is always partly natural as well...

my natural convo's without routines are strong, but with routines its like you have superpowers... its an extra edge. and i miss those superpowers everytime when i say to myself: now i am not going to use routines tonight.... then i just plow through like in my afc days... (maybe a bit better though because of all the interactions i have been doing lately)
and the minute i switch it back (the routines)... BANG... I fly again!!
you know what i mean???


i dont think full natural game can ever have the power of structured routines... how about that as a statement guys??

Apologies if you felt my comments were undermining to you, I was simpley putting a few thoughts down for your consideration. As i have said to so many people the written word is so easy to misunderstand due to its emotionless effect of being in Black and White.
Each of us have egos which must be cosetted er they flare up our emotions and blind us to advice or comments which appear condesending, my dad would beat my mum for just a look and read she was belittling him into it.
I am sure you have already answered your problems that will work for you, like any comments/advice i get will have to fit my psych or they will be unread and left to whither on the rocks.
J1f

What makes you think that there's no structure in a "natural" game?

It's the difference between Improv and your "routine comedy" but if iprov didn't have comedic elements/structure, you wouldn't laugh.

It's figuring out what makes those "canned routines" work or not work that gives you the ability to flow you game freely.

I've suggested this on this forum many, many times but seeing that there isn't much reply to this suggestion, I'm guessing either that most of you don't understand my suggestion or don't see the value in it.

You create your OWN material by going anywhere there are a lot of women. Then you don't go there and wing it by opening them and saying whatever the hell you want. Sit down and start writing. You see one and you create an opener for her, the routine, how would you number close her? How would you K close her. Just start firing away and moving your pen. Then when you get home, you take a look at what you wrote.

Use your imagination. Will this particular opener work for a girl like that who was doing what she was doing? How would the conversation have gone? Don't like it? Then begin editing. Revise your material. Do this over and over again so that eventually when you get home, there's never anything to revise because you're just nailing them 100% every time.

So many of you guys recommend to each other to just go out and practice and I always think, "practice what?" Well, good luck with random practice that but if you want to get better, practice should also have some structure. . .

yes this is a great tip, to just write down your own perfect story. and then reconsider if the perfect story is really perfect, or that you can make it better....
its the best way to visualize it for yourself and play it out inside your head... thoughts become reality after all...

Sounds to me as though you've missed out on an important concept: State.

Take a step back and think about why those routines resulted in excited/charged conversations? It had nothing to do with WHAT you were saying. It had entirely to do with HOW you were saying it. I'm not saying you have confidence issues, but I think that you believe more in the routines than you do in your own wit. Routines are NOT superpowers. I know a guy who used to open sets by smacking girls on the ass - and those sets stuck. But this guy was at the highest level of congruency (i.e. he truly believed in the way he acted and the things he said). Keep in mind if a natural comes along and calls you out on some Best Friend Test, and then pushes you (literally) out of the set, there's no way you can recover from that humiliation unless you want some trouble with the bouncers.

Research State. Check out the Jeffy Show and Blueprints (RSD). I'm sure you've noticed times where you were super excited or energetic, and the convos were exciting and the girls fed off that energy. That is State. Just have to figure out how to trigger that on command.

Until then, continue with your routines (as you said), and mix it up. Learn to wean yourself off of them.

Cheers,

Q.

I make it time to ditch the training wheels, my advice would be to think what about these routines interests women. Then keep a handful of routines as a backup plan but ideally make them things women won't have heard.

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A few weeks ago, I took a girl to a night spot. Couldn't do much because she's one of those, "I don't mind you flirting with other girls . . . but I mind" types.

Anyhow . . . a knight in shining armor shows up. I can tell the guy is a PUA of sorts. Great, I can leave them together for 10 minutes and I can go # close that hot girl by the bar. Well before I can get her number, my girl shows up and goes, "Let's get outta here."

Here's the funny part. On the way home she goes, "That was the weirdest guy I ever met!"

I ask, "Why?"

Then she began telling me about ALL his routines, "Do I look gay to you? Something about a cube, etc . . ."

Ha ha ha . . . I just thought that was funny.

I dont know how you guys work with routines.

Girls have very short attention spam in clubs, you have to keep their interest, say something funny/stupid, tease them, couple short stories etc. Have no idea how cube would work in such setting ;/

I think quirky little things work well to get interest but nothing like the cube, things like that are to be used once you have isolated in my opinion

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That scenario is why I tend to not use canned material. Obviously it all has to do with personal preference and comfortability level, but it just seems too fake to me and if you can't pull it off well, it will seem fake to a woman as well. Also, you can't have a canned relationship, so why not just start off on a real level. I am not against canned material, it just doesn't fit my style.