MOD's: If this belongs in a different section, I'm happy to have it moved, but in light of the most recent thread on the subject [actually began about something slightly different, but it was pointed out that it was getting off topic, as in, in the direction of the topic I'm about to discuss, lol], so I figured it most necessary to put in the lounge. It's certainly not a newbie questions or specific advice on a girl/situation, etc.

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First off, this is not an effort to engage in petty quibbling, or make personally insulting claims with no merit, but it is intended to get some issues aired, which have come to light recently, and, as, most importantly this is **Of tremendous concern to this community, the industries which support it, and all individual users who deserve to know the truth when taken for a ride**

When some honest dude who's plugging away at learning attraction, perhaps getting a little disillusioned by PUA, which could be for one of a number of reasons, is told by you that this site, and 99% of products out there are a scam, I think he's entitled to a little backup of those claims.

Unfortunately none of us have seen this. Requests for any kind of substantiation of whether Sleazy knows what he's talking about are vehemently struck down, usually involving a ban.

I figured this would be the best, if not only way to get a message out there to and about this guy, that other members deserve to see as well. We are owed an answer and he will be forced to acknowledge these questions, or ignore this letter outright. This decision of course, has its own consequences insofar as reputation is concerned.

So without further adieu....
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Mr. Sleazy,

Why do you ban us from your forum, for merely asking questions and expressing genuine curiosity about this whole anti-PUA approach?

I have seen more often than not lately, genuine posters who come in and respectfully, politely, ask about your claims, or further information on this yet you deride them, dismissing their posts, and accusing them of being a "shill for RSD" or some such. (which is a UK term by the way, most people on this side of the pond don't even know what the hell is meant by "shill", even *with* a dictionary definition.)

Of particular concern is the SPAM of a user by the name of Meister, who you recently banned. I'm providing a link to the full post activity here, and the full text of what this guy posted below in "Exhibit 1", in the event that you try to delete it.



But I'll briefly summarize what this guy appeared, from my reading, to be genuinely coming to your forum to explain and understand:

1. He openly acknowledged, in good faith, that his faith in Pickup had been shaken.

2. He understands, "Okay, so there's this new "anti-PUA" movement out there. But what does it do aside from say, "I bought this book, that book, those audio courses, and this DVD collection, and went on x, y, and z bootcamps. They all sucked. Pickup is a scam. Stay away from it. - The End- "?

3. He posed the very legitimate, valid question of whether the anti-PUA movement offers anything in its place, or if it simply leaves this clueless guy even more clueless, and "high and dry".

- On your forum, this was callously derided as "an atheist looking for the atheist heaven, now that his reality has been shattered.", and "Okay, well you anti-PUA guys show me how to sleep with 6 girls a day, because there's a way out there right?! I know there's gotta be a way!"

4. Asked if you, Sleazy, condone the SPAM of new visitors, who are not yet even sold on PUA (they could be your loyal followers), with basically being told to "shove off" when they visit sites like PUAHate.

5. An assessment of the legitimacy of one post on PUAHate, which pretty much said, "PUA is bullshit, you have no chance unless you're big/muscular, 6' 2"+, and good genes, and rich."; discussed in this post:


6. Unclear Narrative of someone who has "recovered" from PUA What does this mean? Again, you were asked "Where to go from here", or for that matter, "Where to go if I haven't even gotten into PUA?"

You provided no response.

7. A reference that both of your free e"Books", "Debunking the Seduction Community", and "Johnny's Journey", pretty much just say:

"Pickup sucks, I've tried it all. Get out of it if you're in it. Stay out of it if you haven't gotten in, - The End- "

The purpose of these works is indeed unclear, if nothing else, to discourage single guys from going out there and trying to create any attraction. Again, no next-steps are given.

8. You were provided with legitimate, constructive feedback: "Why not do stuff *better* than the PUA's?"

You dismissed this outright.

He did cite that works such as yours talk a whole lot about the travesty of one guy's experience with PUA, how he never did worse with the ladies than when they were in PUA, so he then left PUA, and the story ends.

What is quite astutely pointed out, however, is that what you see later in these works is not, "So I left PUA, and things have never been better with the ladies! I'm seeing 5 girls right now, and at least 3 want to be my girlfriend! Thanks Aaron!"

I think Meister summed it up quite well in his bottom-line questions at the end:

"What's the point of tearing down PUA if you offer nothing in its place?" (Buying girls drinks? Showing up on a first date in a tuxedo with a bouquet of flowers?)

"Where is the anti-"game" pick-up material, as it were?"

"What does it mean for someone to have 'recovered' from, PUA? Are they now doing better with the ladies?"

I feel this is a question that is long-since overdue...

One of the main reasons this reader stated he even was interested in your forum was because he found so much RooshV - related activity on your blog and forums. I imagine this would have been seen favorably since you, I mean EagleEyes, I mean Aaron Sleazy, apparently have such a hard on for this guy.

Seriously, what is it with the RooshV thing?! You let a "guest poster" come onto your blog and post like 6 lengthy posts in a row trying to take down RooshV.

Even in reviewing the posts on your forum, you, under your alias (ahem, I mean, EagleEyes) even continues in forum posts: "And for my next act in demolishing RooshV..."

I've got to second Meister in his statement, which you cited as the reason for his banning.

" . . . your hard-on for RooshV has lasted longer than 4 hours, and you need to call a doctor."

Meister was given a mandate to respond to your original, dismissive, highly critical response within 72 hours, or his account would be deleted.

Well, I have actually been in touch with Meister; he sent me all of the messages that he sent you guys, upon your request. I understand you never approved for posting (we'll get to that in a second), any of his messages, which, from my reading, were actually quite nice and respectful, bending over backwards to explain himself to you.

Yes you approved subsequent posts by other users.

Sleazy, Sleazy, Sleazy,

I've been doing some reading up on you, and it appears you've been quite the bad boy.

You were once a moderator over at PUAHate.com.

You lost your Moderator privileges for habitually banning users who would call attention to your conflict of interest in moderating an anti-PUA site, while selling PUA books at the same time!

This is well-documented in threads over there where you were torn to shreds, any ounce of credibility you would've had was lost, and laughed out of the forum. LOL

Now as for AaronSleazy.com, Who moderates his entire forum, post-for-post?!? What are you afraid of?

Indeed you are, a very, very, insecure little man, of profoundly low self esteem.

Exhibit 1: Original (and only accepted post) by Meister

Hey guys,

This is my first post to this forum. I mainly came here after finding a blog post, and lots of RooshV comments, because I live in DC.

I decided to get involved after just having enough of the same rhetoric, putting in the time, and getting nothing from PUA. Yeah I met guys who were good; but they didn't seem to be good because of "routines", etc.

Some of you may know me as *that guy*, yes, I was (and still am I suppose) the one PUA student of all time who has ever attended an Adam Lyons Bootcamp, was so disgusted at the conduct, teachings and SPAM of students, that I posted my own review on a major Pro-PUA site, to not be deleted under threat of massive posting, and I got my $1,000 refund. That post exists to this day.

Even at conferences and events, etc; I've been told, "OH! SO *YOU'RE* THAT GUY!!!"

So here we are.

The trouble I'm having with this whole anti-pua, anti-game, etc. stuff is....where's the narrative??!

I don't understand what the objective is.

Many blogs do nothing but tear down PUA sites/authors/blogs, etc., (without giving any counterpoint an opportunity, mind you), and they stop right there and the story's over. Not only does that come off as cheap, and as setting up a strawman, but then it leaves the reader with nothing...

This leaves the reader high and dry, knowing even *less* about what he's supposed to do now.

Other sites, like PUAHate.com, a visitor comes on, having not yet been sold on PUA, and asks for legitimate dating advice.

People post pictures of girls rubbing their pussies, lurid, insulting messages like, "Yeah, what color panties are your girlfriends' panties? Let me know but don't send photos yet because I'm gonna shoot my load to it."

Of particular are posts like this basically saying, "PUA is bullshit, you have no chance unless you're big/muscular, 6' 2"+, and good genes, and rich."


Like I said, I'm new to this whole "recovering from PUA" thing and I just don't understand the narrative.

"So I was having trouble with girls..then I found the community, I dropped a few $1,000's over a few years, and was doing just as bad, then I realized these guys were all full of shit!"

But what I don't seem to see next is, "Then, as soon as I gave up PUA, I was getting pussy left and right! I'm actively dating 5 girls, all pretty good looking, and at least 3 I know for sure want to be my girlfriend."

So what's the resolution/purpose to this? I mean, I've read the blog Lifestyle Journey, and I did my best to contribute, showing that some of the legit PUA products are completely against what PUA critics claim PUA is (eg. taking a girl off of one pedestal and putting her on another; nonsense, because you should always work to be outcome unattached. You say hi to a pretty girl one evening and she turns her back to you; you're supposed to take that home with you and mope about it?")

I corrected that guy real fast; but there are def. legit. complaints about the PUA community.

One thing I never understood was this separation of friends from PUA Wings, like, "Yeah I'm out sarging right now, but naw, Jeff, my wing, isn't invited to the party tomorrow night because he's not one of my friends." (I've seen it)

If you want to be a pro-mens forum to debunk these PUA sites, you should do better than the PUA's.

So far, I've read a few eBooks talking about he travesty of a guy's experience with PUA and how you should never get involved, - The End -

You should tell guys how to genuinely get out there and attract women. Whether it's a guy looking for a girlfriend, and he wants to make that chance encounter at the Starbucks in the lobby of his building into something more...

.. or if it's just a dude looking for sex. And no, there is nothing wrong with a guy going out just trying to get laid. That's between him and the girl. Many girls are out there likewise.

- but when it turns into tricks, making her think you're interested in a relationship just to get laid for the night, yeah, that's fucked up. Then again, that's existed long before "game" ever came about, and still goes on to this day.

I read the 170 pg. novel on this forum. I didn't get it.

He mentioned (paraphrased): "So I got to college, wow, I thought girls liked me in high school, but now I found out it was a big deal to have the interest of a girl in college! It was even monumental to have a girlfriend who was good looking!" ( - end of section - )

** So why's he saying this? Yeah it was a big deal because he achieved it or big deal because he now saw the social status associated with the affection of attractive women, and coultn't talk to any?? I don't know, because not another word was said about it.

He then moves on with his life after college:

"I got a presitgious job right out of college." (Okay, I mean, great, but I still don't understand the narrative.)

Does anti-game mean "don't talk to girls, especially out on the street during the day."

Does it mean "Don't approach girls in bars and clubs to talk to them?"

You realize the reputation these anti-game sites are starting to have, don't you? If nothing changes, these sites will simply be little reactionary businesses, and every few years or so another Adam Lyons will come along and you'll all have to critique his stuff.

Why not provide *better* stuff.

There is one legitimate product, from RSD, of all place (I know, I know), it may have some fluff, but I want to see what you guys think (who've seen the whole thing of course) I'm posting it in the review section.

But the bottom-line question I have is,

"What's the point of tearing down PUA if you offer nothing in its place?" (Buying girls drinks? Showing up on a first date in a tuxedo with a bouquet of flowers?)

"Where is the anti-"game" pick-up material, as it were?"

"What does it mean for somoene to have 'recovered' from, PUA? Are they now doing better with the ladies?"

I feel this is a question that is long-since overdue...

All other forum links removed... as per forum rules.

_________________
Http://Dating-Musings.com

He bans you because he can't refute your arguments. I've seen it half a dozen times on baseball sites. The cherished information is attacked, and there's no response for it outside of "The information is flawed."

Good observation and also...


I am getting really annoyed by these professional forum trolls who are hired to market and advertise products from scammers and frauds like David de anushole and scammer aaaoron sleazbag.

I get really annoyed with internet marketers systematically spamming covert promotion of products.

A hypocrite. Scamming the people who already have been scammed is a very grave offense.

_________________

I will make some Cease and deceased order and some chilling effects on aaron sleazy the scammer.

It will be revenge time against a cuckold who has no in field video evidence!

Aaron sleazebag is a fucking mentally masturbating dweeb who has no videos of sex.

A fraud.

I will get my revenge and post bad reviews of him in a lot of websites and other attacks for his fraudulent marketing of inaccurate information.

For shamelessly misrepresenting PU ideas in order to capitalize on the anti-pu market niche.

I will have revenge on this scamming douchebag. Him Exploiting weak, retarded, vulnerable men will not be tolerated.

P.S.

A cuckold with no video proof of his ability to get a lot of high quality sex.
His lack of options.
It is an epic facepalm.

A legitimate fraud deserves to be obliterated.

It is embarrassing, he is selling advice through SPAM coaching without any proof of legit successes.

No videos at all!!~ What fucking FAIL this aaron sleazebag is.

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Thanks for the traffic boost!

In response to a complaint we received under the US Digital Millennium Copyright Act, we have removed 19 result(s) from this page. If you wish, you may read the DMCA complaint
that caused the removal(s) at ChillingEffects.org.

Haha! Say goodbye to your traffic scammer.

Hahahahaha. I've messed around with his web traffic by using a lot of SEO tools. Hahaha. LOL.

A cuckold with no vidoe proof of sex or any in - field video evidence of sex is a fraud and should be destroyed.

Aaron sleazy is an internet marketer.

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Link removed, no linking other forums.

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The sad thing is, in reading that guy's post, that guy Meister actually went into Sleazy's site in good faith, asking honest, legitimate questions, and appeared curious about the movement, perhaps even implying an interest in being part of it.

Sleazy & co. were so defensive and ready to pounce on anyone who would suggest any doubt whatsoever. They took it as an immediate grave insult, and disguised scamster post promotion for RSD.

They couldn't even see the honesty from this guy, they were so trapped in their own world. Now that's some pussy shit.

Over the years I've found that people who're that adamant in their beliefs are really trying to convince themselves.

Unfortunate that some people just don't learn...

_________________
Http://Dating-Musings.com

Personally, I am not a PUA fanatic by any means, but I have seen the benefits from a lot of what it has to teach. I don't blindly believe that you can be a one legged midget with no fame or money and bag models. However, I do see how much success can go up with the right mindset and strategies.
I've seen a lot of PUAhate online, especially in BB/misc, mostly by dudes with giant muscles, no decent education, no decent job, and and IQ of 90 (the smart ones). They have a very strong belief that unless you have "aesthetics", no girl worth wanting will look at you, no matter what your wit, charm, wealth, or game. The other side of PUAhate are the bitter permavirgins that simply don't have the social skills needed to get laid, and they blame PUA when they inevitably fail.
What PUAhate doesn't understand, is that PUA is not something a socially handicapped basement dweller can just go and do. It requires first and foremost, self improvement. In career, education, social status/friends, looks, and then it goes in to techniques that are effective at getting women.
Generally, any time a movement exists only to oppose something, it is a sham, and can never exist on its own, since to be a part of it you only have to agree to hate the same thing. PUAhate has absolutely nothing to offer, aside from bitterness. They are the ones that turned to PUA and failed, and don't want to live with the idea that they could have succeeded but didn't and that others will while they get left behind. The others are the "brahs" jacked up on enough Tren to make a cow shake, that get vapid skanks at clubs to throw themselves at them, and don't want to imagine any other reality, or that someone richer than them, smarter than them or.... more sociable than them, can get laid too, without having to poison their liver and fuck their heart to do it.
Basically, PUAhate is a collection of insecure guys obsessed with their looks, and bitter virgins that tried pickup and failed.

Don't worry dude as per forum rules I deleted all links to your forums....

I've heard very little good about you and thus refused to subscribe to reading any of your ideals... your low self-esteem (can't take being wrong) effects your ability to have integrity(this is also a sign of low self-esteem)... I would be very careful if I was you... This is the biggest pua forum on the net....

I don't believe in slander but I certainly don't encourage anyone to subscribe to a liar, crooked marketer, and someone with no integrity.... Kind of sad.

I am very anti-ego but if this many people thought I was 'sleazy' and it's not related to your name you may want to take into account your thoughts and behaviors.

Peace and Love,

Vic

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Just another guy from back in the day.

Blogging again living life: http://www.Scienceofnaturalgame.com

Thank you.

I couldn't agree more.

"Pickup": Forget how it was described in the fictional book by Neil Strauss, "The Game"

It's mostly about selling a "frame of mind" Yeah, he talks about Tom Cruise, etc.

It really boils down to working hard to be great in life, which then, of course, flows into being great with women.

Who can argue with that?

_________________
Http://Dating-Musings.com

I've just now seen this thread and I've decided to register and clarify a few things, even though it's been inactive for a few days.

First of all I'm not Aaron Sleazy and two how would it make sense for Aaron Sleazy to make an alias in his own blog or forum?

Also, unlike Aaron Sleazy I have no problem with PUAs in general (in the realm of the Internet you'd be stupid to pay these people anything when you can get it without paying). Also, I couldn't care less if most PUAs were scammers, atleast they teach people to get out of their comfort zones and be social ...Roosh however is a different story.

NEVER have I visited a blog and forum where someone was so pathetic in so many ways I could fill this thread with 10 pages on the amount of things wrong with him. It is HIGHLY DAMAGING to follow or read his blog. Clearly, this man is in NO POSITION to give advice to anybody.

He is an amateur trying to give advice to other amateurs...he has plenty of members in his forum who have more experience and knowledge than him.

If ANYONE needs to be taken down it is him. Read my articles on Sleazy's blog or even read Roosh's blog and see if you disagree.

I do not like "Aaron Sleazy" as a person, he has a uncalibrated troll like and backstabber personality.... In other words I for example criticize some of the community methods in a way that i do not sound like an angry right wing Republican. However, his advise is really good for the most part, and he is legit, like him or not. With the op, he probably got pissed cause it comes across a bit of bs. It is basically saying, that his books do not offer alternatives to what he is criticizing and that is not true. His books and blog actually offer tons of the things "That really work".
He also has 3 of the best books available imo, 2 are free one is less than 10 dollars. But yea a lot of people get turn off by his behavior. Like wtf is this type of behavior, sleazy comes across as to sensitive to critics, which is a sign of insecurity, here is an example:
In my opinion and i might be wrong, is an act to draw controversy and therefore traffic. I do not like that strategy since people can see through that so he himself becomes part of the problem instead of the solution... My believe is if my shit is good enough it will eventually become popular by itself, no need to do shit like this.

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Learn the proper way to maximize your results in a dancefloor/club environment, check out my blog and youtube channel:
http://www.dancefloorseduction.com

Dancefloor/Club game youtube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/dancefloorseduction

PUA is not for everyone, it was started by geeks to turn their brains into advantage in courting rather than disadvantage it was before. You can't be PUA if you are stupid, or you are not willing to work on yourself, and no you will not get results at once, but even negative results can motivate you to become better. PUA is not a magic pill, you cant be obese, have bad clothing style and a terrible haircut and expect hot women will fall all over you, but luckily all those problems are solvable, you just need motivation to do it. PUA is not about making you more attractive, it is about preventing you from ruining your attractiveness by being lazy, 90% of human beings are attractive, they just destroy it by choices. Such people can in most cases regain their attractiveness but it takes time and effort, and many are too lazy to do that. Take a fat woman for example, are you attracted to fat woman? The thing is there could be a 10 hiding under all that fat, but how can you ever know? If that girl loses weight, uses right makeup and clothing to show off her stuff she can blossom, i have seen this type of transformation, people just wont dedicate time and effort. There is the other 10% tough that are truly cursed, they cant do shit about that but that is no reason for the rest of us to suffer.

To the poster above, this PUA stuff is ultimately imitating a mind set. The mind set of a person who values themselves above all else.

The ultimate reality is always respect yourself first. Unfortunately most people respect themselves to a degree, but respect others MORE.

Respect yourself ABOVE ALL ELSE...that is all you have to do. If you do this, you will look after your body, you would want to wear fine clothes, you would want to live an interesting life, you will not put women BEFORE yourself.

Most PUAs teach these things in terms of techniques. This is where I have a problem.

Teaching men how to interact with women is BS. If you do this you're giving women too much respect.

Instead teach men to respect themselves, to have standards...to not accept BS from ANYBODY.

If you do this the rest will come naturally....
You do not believe the things you see, you see the things you believe.

I would rather be deformed, respect myself 100%, not seeking the approval of anybody and live life on MY terms.

Than a "normal" person who cannot take their own advice, seeks approval from others and lives life on someone else's terms (which is what most people do BTW).

Well I certainly appreciate you coming on here and being a stand-up guy and instead of being insulting or insecure, civilly clarifying some stuff. - ain't nothing wrong with that.

With regard to the notion "Yeah, pickup/game has a lot of scamster BS in it, but generally does good because it gets guys out there actually talking to girls.." Yeah, this is the view I've had for a long time. The funny thing is, as moderate as that view is, expressing something like that'll get you kicked off of PUAHate, and from the looks of it, Sleazy's forum as well.

That's what I love about this forum, and what keeps me coming back, and back, even though I'm not a pickup fanatic, and don't agree with every technique/program out there; there's room dissent and disagreement here as long as you're civil about it. We have pages upon pages of negative reviews of products, and those aren't "screened" or "filtered" but get to see the light of day.

With regard to RooshV, well, we have a "regular" on here who claims Sleazy's one redeeming value is that he has it in for RooshV.

About all of the negativity about Roosh, I can't see where any of it's founded. This guy sure isnt lying; he's actually invited on these foreign talk shows, etc when he travels the world, like that Ukranian one.

The general narrative I see is, Roosh's view is that American women are spoiled, they have all the options in the world these days and get to set ridiculously unrealistic standards; even well below average looking girls get to take their pick from literally hundreds upon hundreds of guys fiending to get the time of day from them.

They really don't have to try anymore. They're increasingly fat and masculine. So what's a guy to do? Travel the world and find a country where the women are more feminine, affectionate, realistic, and more genuine with guys.

And he actually DOES travel the world and "walks his talk" instead of just bitching on some blog or forum.

While most people would just passively live their life, complain, and do nothing about it, this guy is actually doing something. He's living the life he talks about, the life he encourages guys to try to find. He has one video where he talks about criticism against him and he goes by point-for-point like a list of 10 ways that he's *doing* and *following* his own advice that he gives guys. Stuff like "earn passive income from your own business to get more freedom." - he has his books, and his other writing.

To that, a typical Roosh critic will say: "He's lying. He's just making up stories."

I will ask: "How do you know he's lying? What proof do you have?"

The answer is always something like. "He's just a scamster! He just lies and doesn't tell the truth!"

I think the fact that he gets invited onto talk shows it seems whenever he just sets foot into a foreign country, shows that there's a little more credibility to what Roosh says than that.

Since usually when you have two sides of a story, one side is extreme in one direction, the other equally extreme in the opposite, and the truth is somewhere in the middle. From what I've seen at least, I'd have to put my money on the needle being somewhere closer to Roosh's end of the meter.

_________________
Http://Dating-Musings.com