Previously Hobbit started a thread in which he articulated what he believed to be some of the main problems in PU but the really interesting part for this thread was;
The kernal of the above being that the way you engage with women and pick up is going to influence what you believe about women. Which is in its own way, kind of obvious.

The problem with RAFC's is that they tend to have very little experience in the kind of environments that they are trying to learn pick up in and even less experience in dealing with the people they meet when picking up. A lot of these same guys once they -think- they know how pick up works start giving advice and weighing in on "What women are like", "What alpha guys like to do" and weave a tale of life equivalent to a Mad Max film, where everything has gone to shit.

This ranges from worlds in which the girls are plotting your down-fall for their own sadistic entertainment and constantly trying to frustrate your attempts while the alpha males all try and out-do each-other with passive aggressive put downs to worlds where women are ready to jump your bones the second you stare at them and express your desire to fuck them.

But you can't blame RAFC's for writing that kind of stuff... because that's what they experience hit and miss irregular relationships with girls and occasional aggro from guys. What's more when you combine that kind of world experience with the PUA tendency to analyse and interpret everything in an alternative world view full of lingo you get some pretty dodgy beliefs.



So we see, a lack of normal socialisation combined with artificial pick up interactions with people can lead to some shitty attitudes. What's the answer to this problem? It's friendship. Finding positive experiences with men and women that don't come through the filter of PUA is really helpful to your understanding of humans -which is what you deal with day in day out as a PUA-

Forming connections with positive individuals who can help you familiarise yourself with how to socialise and relax in a non pua context can help you not only generate happier and healthier beliefs about those around you but will help your game enormously if this is something that you still need to learn.

As a closing note; It's much easier to calibrate and perform a cold approach in a bar if you have some sort of accurate idea what it would be like to be a girl in a bar receiving you.

edited...clarified..

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You actually nailed it pretty hard on the subject.

Going a bit under the "I`m a wanna be PUA, I can only give my own perceptions of my reality of things in the world"; I`ve had a really hard time approaching and even making friends.

And this is simply becouse I`ve putted too many pressure on myself.
Everytime I see a hot women, or even one who I like a little, I set myself in what I think it is my seductive mode; wich is me basically being an asshole. So as a conclusion this screws up my game big time.

On the other hand, when I`m drunk, I don`t feel any pressure nor I care about anything; I manage to pull girls, make new friends, and interact with other male buddies who are just there to drink and have a good time.

i haven`t learned how to relax conciously, I even thought about hypnosis but never tryied it and probably I will ever do.
But I always knew that if I manage to be that chilled relaxed guy simply by asking myself to do so, without the buzz of course, I can be epic at what I`m aiming.

Yep, I went to a PUA meetup here in my city and these guys were rambling on and on with the "you gotta be a real alpha man" tripe. It was gayer than a gay pride parade.

A lot of it sounded like one of Sly Wolf's rants: Women have turned into annoying bitches? (As if women weren't ALWAYS annoying?) *Cough* Butthurt *Cough*
Exactly, just go out, be %100 confident in yourself, and aim to have with the women you meet. This will pull you out all the delicious tail you can boink.

I used to be an AFC, but losing my fear of rejection and interaction was the only PUA trick I ever really needed to learn. I don't need overcompensate with this "real alpha male" (i.e. be a giant douchebag), DHV, or F/C/X/Z/B/Q close shit.

lol what a faggit. You mad I didnt bother to reply to you anymore in that thread? There's a reason for that. After I elaborated you still didn't get it, so I concluded you were too slow and inexperienced in life to bother going back and forth. My time is more valuable then that. Have fun cheering for the women's parade, white knight.

As recommended above, find friends, go out with friends and relax with friends. If it really is getting to you, you might want to consider stopping with PU and just spending a month on hanging out with people.

It's a lot easier to just see and experience the world and then lay PUA over the top as a technical frame-work to be used than use a technical PUA framework as your understanding of the world then build on that.

Sly and Techgame; thanks for taking the time to read this thread and type up a response, but please keep the drama to yourselves, I do not want my thread to be turned into a PUAF "bitch off".

This post is so true. Most guys try too hard which causes them to come across as desperate and needy which is never a good thing.

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Thanks for the response Psychotic, but "trying to hard" is really the wrong term. The problem is much more fundamental than "trying to hard" more often than not it is "trying the wrong thing at the wrong time in the wrong way" thanks to a general lack of social experience.

Arguably what you are doing when picking up goes in 3 steps.

1. Enter social interaction and create a positive vibe that warrants you being there.

2. Socialise and seduce the people you want to pick up by applying some sort of strategy.

3. Arrange for an extraction and fuck.

These guys know the "strategy", they've had it described to them a million times in forum posts and SPAM conferences but what they don't understand is the socialise part. So they are trying to operate in an environment that they have little in-depth experience with and end up applying pick up tactics in a way that they were never intended.

Simply said. You can't teach someone how to swim by explaining to them the rules and tactics of under-water hockey. At the end of it you are just going to get someone who knows the lingo of under-water hockey, sucks at it anyway and can't swim.

For many of you out there struggling with under-water hockey, why not take the time to learn how to swim first?

Good point. You just said what I was thinking.

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Read conversational jiu-jitsu by juggler. It's focused on the fundamentals of an interaction. How to give value, talk in emotions, and constantly improve your conversational skills so that you become more natural and never have to rely on canned material. Working on your fundamentals is like investing in yourself for lifetime improvement that lasts. Canned material is like buying a shirt. It might look cool for a while and you'll probably wear it more often in the beginning to show off your swag, but after a while it kinda fades, new styles get presented, and you're back on that up and down cycle that is never constant.

Being social is easier then being a good pua and once you're good at being social, then picking up women becomes much easier. It takes about 3 weeks to build a habit. What I recommend is to have small talk to as many people as possible in a natural way while going about your life. If you take the bus, there are opportunities to strike up conversation, also good for pick up. When you're at the mall, talk to the clerks if you're just starting out. Talk to your neighbor when you're waiting in line for coffee. If you're in school, it's so easy to be social if you only try and witness it for yourself, then you'll understand.

Joining sports or social hobbies help as well. Once you build some confidence, I recommend having female friends. They help your natural game even if you don't plan on gaming them. If you want to be good at sex, get a FWB. You can keep improving your sex skills while also working on your pick up skills on the side.

This may be a lengthy process depending on the person and how much they put in it for each phase. The goal is to be more social, natural, confident and experienced in order to reach a certain level (intermediate+) where you can aim at higher goals and focus on specific points of your game since your fundamentals will already be covered.

Yes I actually have that book. Juggler does a great job of breaking down the way conversations should play out between a man and a women.

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Some great points Wolf, but one thing that needs to be picked at.

Trying to gain general confidence and social ability by striking up small conversations over and over again isn't necessarily the best way forward.

Once again such contrived and "small picture" interactions put you in the same position of trying to learning social behaviour by forcing yourself into a series of one dimensional skin deep interactions. Generally all you will learn from those interactions are a series of small gestures and manoeuvres taking place in a very limited context.

What the O.P. is suggesting is that people take the time to just naturally learn the rhythm of humans and how to "fit in". Some people joke about the insecure shallowness of teenagers conforming and trying to fit in. But in all honesty, those blonde 16 year olds preening themselves (instead of doing their homework) are honing the valuable skill that is the ability to tune in to the people around them.

Once the RAFC is certain that he has an understanding of what normal social behaviour is, he can plan his non-normal PUA behaviour in a way that won't come across as quite so surreal and awkward to the girls on the receiving end.


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ADDITIONAL NOTE:

Logicians have a lot of trouble trying to create a mathematical formulae that represents language and can calculate the true/false status of various propositions. There is plenty of debate over why exactly that is, but it goes without saying that langauge and human communication are really complex subjects. Too complex to distil into a book.

Now books can guide you, they can give reference points and descriptions to learn from but they can't give you the full understanding of how social interactions work/feel/look/sound etc etc that is required to be a good PUA. To this end PUA's recommend Field time to provide a more intimate understanding of pick up, and to actually sarge. The problem with Field time is that in Pick up it usually only teaches from one perspective and takes place in a small selection of environments and contexts. This means that Field time alone rarely gives people the holistic understanding of human interactions that they require.

Some RAFC's simply don't need more sarge time, they need social time so that they can understand how humans work and THEN re-approach PU with a new understanding.

The small interactions were recommended as the first stepping stone to a better/social man. The problem with many aspiring puas is that they try to rush everything, get overwhelmed, and their progress can come to a halt, or they end up becoming keyboard jockeys...Maybe since this sub-forum is not meant for beginners (I forgot that) I should have skipped that part. I just wanted to mention it because many can't imagine themselves being social due to their past experiences, and I wanted to show that there are no risk steps into slowly achieving that goal.

Anyways, there have been studies that show playing soccer when you're young will teach you a lot of the social aspects in real life. Things like teamwork, sharing the ball, having others compete to beat you, foul play and how to handle it, unfair judging, etc. Regardless of when you started playing sports (or if you never cared for it), it's one of the reasons I recommended joining an activity. As long as it's not a video game club type of things since you will be surrounded by awkward kids who will not teach you any good social aspects in life.

Traveling is also important, and it's something warped mindless mentioned recently as well. It helps build your self identity, gain new experiences and get out of your comfort zone. All this will improve your social/pua life and will make you more natural overall.

Most of this stuff and 'poles' of the sexual/social spectrum becomes incredible obsolete when you are out chatting up girls.

Yes exactly. This is why the people who actually gets it are the people who try to study more than one part of the game. The people who can see the bigger picture and keep an open mind and above all who can accept being wrong.

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