I've heard one too many times people saying that PUA or certain aspects of it are comparable to rape. Most recently on this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_BPoC7Ru54

To be honest I've always seen "Gambler" as something of a creep with his "stealth seduction" tactics, accidental brushing of boobs etc. To me it's not really how a man should behave and there's nothing wrong with owning your own desires to a woman, in fact I think that's a good thing ("going direct" as the community would describe it").

Beyond that though, a video like this does seem designed to get around the idea of consent. Now I know this is a tricky issue because "express consent" is not usually given or needed, and "implied consent" is probably more the norm. However, what Gambler is suggesting here is to make every move so that it will incur the least likelihood of resistance, and in some cases so that it won't even be noticed. The idea seems to be that a woman gets caught up in the moment because of how subtle and skilful you're being, and before she knows it she's getting fucked without really having had the chance to decide if it's what she wants.

Mystery's stuff on LMR I am more on the fence about. I can see how "we should stop" doesn't necessarily mean "we should stop" and how agreeing and continuing is not unreasonable. The "emotional freeze out" that he suggests can be seen as manipulative but is also quite rational for the reasons that he explains: why should a man continue to be sexually engaged with a woman that is telling him she doesn't want to go any further? And would kicking her out of the door be better than suggesting another activity? So this may be manipulative in terms of what it's trying to achieve, but the moves themselves would seem to be the right ones somehow.

My point is though that in both scenarios, where does consent actually come in? At what point do you judge that "this woman has conveyed to me that she is willing to do this?" Does her horniness equal consent? Does her eventual compliance with your physical escalation equal consent? Would you consider her to have consented when she says "fuck me" or some such phrase?

A lot of people condemn PUA as being entirely on the wrong side of the fence here. Why? Because it's about making what the man wants to happen happen. It's about a guy seeing a girl and thinking "I want to fuck her? How can I bring that about?" and some people would see that as wrong. Presumably you're supposed to meet someone and get to know them and reach some kind of mutual understanding of what you both want (rapport), and the kind of aggressive escalation that 60YOC advocates for example would probably be seen as rapey.

The trouble is that it is the man's job to make the moves and to risk getting rebuffed, and if you're waiting around for a woman to show mutual understanding of this you could be waiting a long time. Basically this approach is fine for developing a relationship, but not so much for hookups. To say that aggressive escalation is wrong is pretty much saying that hooking up with women/one night stands are wrong, because they don't really happen any other way. And aren't women also sexually aggressive with us when they know exactly what they want?

I think the difficulty comes with the definition of rape. I'd always seen it as forcible coercion, as deliberately continuing with a sexual act when you've been specifically told not to. So if a woman hasn't said "stop, I don't want you to do this", you're home free. But I've been increasingly hearing lately about how consent should be required, and how a lack of objection doesn't equal consent. So I guess my questions are: how do you decide when proper consent has been given? Is consent even an issue in your mind or is acquiescence enough? When people talk about PUA being equivalent to rape, how do you distinguish yourself in your mind from a rapist, when a pickup artist and a rapist certainly have aggressive escalation in common?

I realise that the world is becoming more liberal and it's increasingly easy to be convincted of wrongdoing, even just for following natural desires. At the same time, these are clearly real issues for women and if PUA does involve overriding a woman's will and having sex with her in a way that's non-consensual, then surely it's wrong and should be left alone.

Obviously the opposite case that we may end up with is one where women have all the power, where the burden of needing a woman's "consent" ends up with the point where they're literally having us dangling, acting like princesses and saying "you may do this now..." and "I will now permit you to do this..." That's not really a desirable situation, and ultimately touching a woman in a sexual way is hardly something that's just for our benefit, they like it too and so to create this frame where men have the need and women are the ones in a position to say yes or no doesn't seem reasonable. The idea that women should be in control at all times can end up with men seeming fairly powerless, not feeling able to do anything without a woman's specific say-so, and if that situation were reversed then it would rightly be seen as fairly oppressive.

Anyway, those are my musings on the subject. My major questions are:

1. As a PUA, do you consider consent an issue or are you not concerned with it as long as you get laid?
2. If you are concerned with it, how do you judge when proper consent has been given?

These questions may seem a little insulting, but let's be honest, this a forum where I read that "morality has no place on a PUA forum" and I even read one guy saying "no means yes, scratching and punching means no". So there are people on this forum who aren't prepared to leave a woman alone until she has taken the step of physically assaulting him, and given that doing so might take a lot of nerve for a woman to do given that the man is probably bigger than her, this is as good as rape.

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If something's not fun, it's not worth doing

In a normal, standard human courtship, four distinct phases are discernible, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtship_disorder Phases 1 to 3 are typically initiated by women, and men are expected to work on Phase 4; the f-close.

Any shortcuts to the normal courtship phase are deviations which society in general abhor and consider as sexual offenses. Rape, voyeurism, exhibitionism and other deviant acts are punishable by law in several countries and where sexual offenders, at the minimum, are ostracized by the community where they live.

An ethical, learned pick up artist's job is to make sure that the seduction he does conforms to the normal, standard human courtship phases.

For question #1 my answer is this: When a woman says, "Please put it in now, please." that's my signal that I'm beyond being branded as a sexual offender. It's a polite call to action; but a coercive direct order where a superior muscular force (her pussy) is about to engulf an inferior, blood engorged sponge (my dick) until that superior force finally subdues a spurting appendage that meekly conks out and dies. Of course, that weak force may rise up again but it is no match for the greed and grinding power of a hardcore and wet avian suction, feline mechanism.

The woman might even demand, "Faster! Faster! Faster!" where a man can only meekly oblige or she might curse you in vain and blaspheme to high heavens with something like, "Oh God! Oh God! You're fucking devil!". A man is just a man in this modern feminist age where the laws favor women most than men. For instance, rape is a crime against women. It's really unheard of where a woman got convicted for raping a man.

For question #2, my indicators are the 3 phases of courtship. I make sure that it is the woman that: (1) Initiates eye contact; (2) Starts talking and smiling; and (3) Starts the touching.

It's a woman's world. Most of us men are just deluded that we initiate the seduction; not women.

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Approach. Open. Escalate. Isolate

Here are my two essential rules on texting that will save you tons of time and money:

general-questions/topic137931.html

In the US, the rape laws vary from state to state so it is hard to give a legally sufficient answer to this one. Over here in the UK, rape is defined in law as "intentional penetration of the vagina, anus or mouth of a person, when that person does not consent and [the penetrator] does not reasonably believe there is any consent".

So working off that definition, the main point of contention is subjective; do you reasonably think the girl is consenting?

A woman getting caught up in the moment due to your techniques, and then possibly regretting it afterwards matters not. She can consent for all sorts of reasons; going into court and saying "I allege that it was actually rape because I only consented due to him being charming" is not going to stand up.

Being forward in escalation can risk some sexual offence - if you do it wrong. That's why there's an escalation ladder. If you try to put your hand down a girls pants twenty seconds after meeting her in a mall, yes she is probably going to press charges! If, however, you go along the compliance ladder of starting relatively small and escalating more as she responds positively to each step, then there's not going to be a problem - and none of that is rape anyway. At most she's going to get offended and give you a slap, it would not be worth her while going to the police to say "oh some guy in a club stroked my arm in a sexual manner last night and then stopped and walked away when I screwed my face up at him doing so".

Essentially, if you go through any kino escalation ladder and drop back if there is light resistance before trying to build your way up again, there is not even an issue of rape or sexual assault. If there is strong resistance and you continue then there could be.

It's just common sense really and all about calibration. If you are vibing that the girl is uncomfortable, then try to make her more comfortable before trying anything sexual. If you are vibing that she is very uncomfortable and you're failing to make her more comfortable, drop it and go, don't try to do anything sexual.

But as for a girl getting caught up in your techniques and regretting it later - not an issue with rape whatsoever. I've gotten caught up by girls wearing low cut tops and regretted it the next morning when I realise she's the sister of a mate or something similar - but she hasn't sexually assaulted me!

Unfortunately for everyone, society's patriarchal hegemony and the sexual double standards that it imposes on women have made it nearly impossible for women to be sexually expressive without some sort of social consequence. Simply speaking, women cannot give the same direct forms of consent a man can without experiencing at least some discomfort from automatically associating her actions as that of a "whore" or a "slut." These are very damning labels and I don't think we men could ever understand the full extent of psychological stress it can cause.

Yes men can, it's the sociological equivalent of being called a faggot. At any rate, women often condemn themselves to such stereotypes and labels. In fact, I hear women enforcing this word more than I hear men enforcing it. In every conversation I've had with women about sex, the world "slut" always comes up, even if I never mention the word, which more often than not, I don't. Most women find it necessary to distinguish themselves from "sluts". The point being, that before the word can be destigmatized, women must stop using the word as a weapon on themselves. I'm not as inclined to buy into the "women's innocence" picture as your posts suggest. It's just like black people and the damn "N word", if you don't want to be considered an "N" stop calling yourself one. Girls have to learn to change their image of themselves before we can have a serious discussion about fixing the problem.

Despite what some people like to believe, PUA isn't some magical Jedi mind trick where we wave our hands, utter a few words, and next thing the woman knows her legs are spread wide apart.

PUAs like to believe the stuff they do is more powerful than what it is. The people marketing programs to the PUA community also like to play up this angle. The truth, however, is that no matter how good at "pua tactics" you get, you are not going to make a woman do anything she doesn't actually want to do.

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Never get broken up with again: the-addiction-formula-never-get-broken- ... 88794.html

hellhound, that was simply beautiful

This makes an interesting read:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-rape/

I'm struck by a few things from it:

1. Feminists don't have a clear consensus on what rape actually is, and after reading this you just end up averaging out at the standard perception which is "well, she obviously didn't want it"

2. Interesting quote: " having granted that “no” always means no, we must recognize that, in some cases, “yes” also means no." This seems to want to have the cake and eat it - women's outward expression can only possibly be inaccurate if it's going in men's FAVOUR. "No" clearly doesn't always mean no, if you've ever had a girl saying "stop", "no", "we shouldn't be doing" this while clearly aroused and caressing you or pulling you closer or otherwise contradicting her words with her actions (what we would call push-pull).

3. Lois Pineau suggests that what is required is "communicative sexuality" which is all well and good, although rather feminised language. By contrast, in this community, we have "calibration", which is excessively masculine and suggests more looking under the bonnet of a car than interacting with a person. Perhaps the middle ground is found in this phrase: "an on-going checkup on one's partner's state”.

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If something's not fun, it's not worth doing

Well, it's always important to screen a woman and see if you're on the same page. Usually by asking if she's looking for fun, or long term. Usually most sexual harassment situations occur when there is a woman with little interests and a man over exerting his energy onto such a woman.

Me too. He looks, smiles and talks like a creep, because he looks insincere. And I think that is part of the main issue. Personally, I think the main difference between regretting sex and not regretting sex is sincerity. I think there are basically three possible paths of sincerity:
1: guy was sincere (or direct) about intentions before sex and remains decent after sex
2: guy was sincere about intentions before sex and becomes indecent after sex
3: guy pretended interest in more than sex before sex and is not interested anymore after sex. This is basically 'insincere first, sincere afterwards'.

When a guy was not sincere upfront, he can't make it up afterwards. So there's no fourth path 'insincere first, insincere afterwards'. Then he'd have to keep lying and the girl will feel tricked at some point. What some PUA material promotes is talking about stuff you're not interested in, canned material, make up excuses to go in the bedroom etc etc. This means plain lying. Also it builds on the idea that girls don't want casual sex, which I think is fundamentally wrong. The goal should be to let a girl be open about her sexuality instead of promising more than you're willing to offer. Lying may work to get a girl in the sack, but she's likely to regret it.

If the guy was clear about wanting just sex beforehand and remains decent afterwards, the chances of regretting sex are minimal. And with that, the chances of feeling 'seduced into sex'/hindsight non-consent. It's about her not feeling tricked into anything.

Forget it!

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^This. Also there are a lot of creepy ass guys out there that think that PUA is a bunch of magic that can get them laid. Maybe so, but if you look at the girls they're pulling, you have to wonder if it was the PUA helping them. I think PUA's biggest utility, really, is getting guys to actually go out and try to get laid. Inevitably it happens, and they then credit weird "tricks" they learned from a book to it, but the truth is they would probably have gotten laid anyways if they tried as much without having read Mystery's "stick a feather in your ass and act mysterious" philosophy. There are legitimate little things that PUA can help with, like good strategies for number closing, or teaching guys to be less clingy, or dealing with group dynamics, but at the end of the day, my opinion is that there is little it can do for you for the bulk of your interaction with a girl. Nothing will help you more than experience. Nothing.

Aside from that, the best way to deal with the rape issue, is: don't sleep with drunk girls (never once have I had sex with a girl considered legally intoxicated), and right before you stick it in, ask them how much they want it. If they ask for it and say "yes" to sex, are over 18, and they are not under physical duress or intoxicated, no court of law will convict you on that information, ever. Of course, there's the danger they'll lie and be believed. This is why I'm very paranoid about who I sleep with. If i see "psycho", or "clingy" written on a girl's personality, I bail on sex right away. Don't stick your dick in crazy. As for brushing past a girl's boobs before hitting on her, that's stage 10 creeper shit. Also has potential to get you beat up/arrested.

This is all well and good, but some of these responses seem very focused on "oh shit, if I'm perceived to have raped a girl then I could be in trouble with the law" rather than "I want to feel confident that the girl feels she has agreed to what is happening because that's what's right". As has been hinted at in this thread, some people on the forum are not interested in morality or in serious discussions of how their actions impact others, I'm just wondering if it's possible to reconcile those things with PUA, and based on these responses, I'm on the fence about it...

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If something's not fun, it's not worth doing

If she's emotionally invested that is really all that matters. It will feel "right" to her. Calibrate her comfort levels and react to them properly while continuing to escalate. Push as far as she will let you without her getting uncomfortable.

It's not rape if you yell "SURPRISE!!" LOL

I always physically escalate on girls. You have to do compliance tests to see if you can escalate to the next level. If they reject the compliance test and you still advance on her, then that is where the line is crossed.