I've been heavily involved with the pua/seduction community for over three years now and in that time I have learned a great deal not only about seduction but also about the very community itself. The following is my attempt to pass onto to you the truths regarding the community as I see it. Hopefully you can take away something from this and be more well equipped to judge the community for yourself in the future.

In no particular order:

1) The seduction community is filled with as many internet marketers as it is men who is good with women. The sad truth is that a good number of the well known names care more about your money than your success with women. Many of these teachers flat out suck with women themselves and are only out to make a quick buck.

2) Some of the well known names are decent at picking up women but are hardly the "masters" they present themselves to be. These guys usually started much the same way many of us do, wanting to get better with women. They read the material and go out and even happen to achieve a bit of success. These guys get to intermediate level and decide to make some money teaching it.

These men do have a lot to teach the newer guy but often times they paint a picture of themselves as being some "Master" seducer and because of this, guys who are better then them end up buying their products.

3) The rarest type of "commercial pua" is the one who actually has a great deal of success and deserve to make money teaching their skill. These guys are rare within the community but offer a great deal of value to those who learn from them.

However, these guys spent so much time lerning how to get good with women that they really had no time to learn internet marketing and because of this, the guys who are the most qualified to teach are often (not always) the least known teachers within the community.

4) The more complicated the method/material from a "mpua/guru/teacher/whatever" is, the more likely that its part bullshit.

Seduction, at its root, is really a quite simple process. Our parents, grandparents, and ancestors along with every other sexual species have been doing it sense the beginning of sexual life forms.

Many teachers will purposely complicate something in order to make more money off of you. The more complicated their material is, the harder it is to learn, the more help you will seek out in learning it.... and the more money you will pay in order to do so.

5) Forums are a great and horrible place to learn about seduction. General forums, ones like this one where the forum is not set around teaching a certain "method" or "style" of game can be extremely confusing to a newer guy. General forums will contain a ton of contradicting advice and theory's. On the plus side, forums like this can give you multiple view points and help lead you to better ideas than those you currently have.

Other forums are specific forums based around a certain method or style of game. For example, the love systems guys have their own forum, RSD has their own forum, Rob Judge has his own forum, ect...

While those forums will often have opposing theorys, the actual specific forum it self will generally all teach the same things. The Love systems forums will pretty much all teach canned game while the rsd forums will mainly teach a more natural approach, ect...

The best thing to do is find a company you most connect with and browse their forum while every now and then coming to a general forum such as this to hear other theory's and opinions.

Its currently 2:40am here so I apologize if any of my ideas arnt clear. I'll make a part two within the next couple days.

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Now you are focusing on the commercial part of PU...

There are still some people who are good and ready to offer advice for free, just difficult to know how to tell the difference between good and bad if you are not familiar with the "guru" in question.

The best way as I see it is to check with people around you in the community and see what they say about the guy. If it is a commonly accepted guy with credibility, he is probably ok.

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I'm not trying to be a dick Ezo, but you're being a Pick Up Snob in my opinion.

bbardot: you just reminded me about porn

Nice start! I wasn't sure if this was going to be a "rip on the community" thread, but I really enjoy the balanced objective view you provided.

I myself am one of those guys who started out just wanting to learn "why the fuck am I so goddamn awful with women and how can I get to the point where I can get any girl I wish I were able to get, but keep fucking it up with?!" I can now say that I can happily get just about any girl that I interact with and feel attracted to, although I am never one to break up a relationship just to get with a girl and I follow my own personal code of ethical conduct quite diligently. Many guys ask me to show them that I can just pick up "any girl", yet that was never my goal and still isn't my goal at this point, so I usually tell them "no, I'm not interested in HER, I'm interested in THAT girl."

My "stumbling points" (not sticking points, I stumble over them and recover these days) are entirely centered upon my own unique psychological issues that I've recently been having great success at tracking back to their initial source...my emotionally, verbally abusive step-father. I'm still a lot mixed up as far as the "reality" of many situations, cause I was always blamed for anything and everything and I was always somehow supposed to know better, so anyone who is familiar with me from the forum will agree when I say, "I over-analyze EVERYTHING". I made a major breakthrough regarding that problem just tonight actually, so I have high hopes that I am now going to resume moving forward at the overly speedy pace that I enjoy most!

I often tell people that I'm probably one of the most honest people they'll ever meet in their entire lives and I mean it! If you want my opinion, I usually love giving it - hell sometimes I can't help but give it to people who don't want to hear it. I've never claimed to be a "master" with women, I quite openly and honestly explained to many of my first "students", that I hadn't had sex for 2 1/2 years, yet based on the results I was providing people with it wasn't much of an issue for most people surprisingly enough. I honestly loathe being called a Pickup Artist, a PUA, an MPUA, or a GURU; I'm not any of those things and a sure don't want to be, yet those are the very same words you'll hear from most of the guys who deserve to be on the top 10 list of the seduction community and I can say I consider a few of those men to be the best mentors I've ever had and despite very little time spent with them, I still consider at least 2 of them to be good friends of mine because of the way they have shaped my beliefs and made me a better person.

I've never dated a supermodel and I don't think I'd really want to. I haven't yet had the pleasure of a threesome; although the possibility was pretty good for a short while a few weeks ago until I over-analyzed the relationship and caused a situation that requires a lot of me being a better man in order to rebuild the trust I damaged. I'm 26 1/2 and I'm pretty sure I've had sex less than 50 times and no relationship has lasted longer than 1 month because I was always so worried I'd fuck it up...that I'd fuck it up, hahaha! I'm truly one of the worst workshop marketers I've ever seen, although I am actually quite a great Marketing and Sales Rep for several companies. I am the 2nd longest position holding Moderator on this forum, with what I assume is still the highest post count of anyone, many of which are these ridiculously lengthy and unreadable ramblings - although I honestly feel that Chief has put in more time and effort here as an acting Moderator over the years, since I have gone on several long absences. I've put far more hours in on this forum than I have in a bar and to be honest, I prefer it that way, I'm kinda bored at bars cause my type of girls don't hang out there, they hang out at music festivals, kink clubs, alternative venues and other such non-mainstream locations.

You'll be hard pressed to find any other coach within the community who openly and honestly say anything they feel like about themselves without caring what people think. Maybe that's one reason why I've never been great at marketing myself as a coach, yet if lying and caring about money rather than results is what it takes to be successful in this community, well...that's why I left for so long. This sure as hell wasn't a sales pitch, yet if you're looking for a guy who can help you get you the results that you're after, I'm pretty damn confident that whatever those results are, as long as you're honest with yourself and they truly are what you want and you're honest with me about them; I'm one of the few people who can show you how YOU can achieve those results and be yourself doing that, without pretending to be some schmuck who needs corny lines, magic tricks, silly gimmicks, to demean and degrade the women that you want to like you and feel comfortable enough to share themselves with you completely.

You know who I am. I fuckin' RYE LEE bitches!!

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"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

P.S. I totally didn't mean to hijack the thread WM, lol. It's super late, I had a wicked night and got on a roll. My real intent behind that post was to offer my own feelings regarding some of the difficulties of trying to make a semblance of a living from traveling around running workshops while being honest about who you are as a person.

Pretty much every guy I've ever met who is a "pickup coach", started out wanting to get better with women, or with people in general even and once enough people started offering money to learn from them they decided they had to live up to the expectations by pretending to be some kind of perfect, invincible, unstoppable force of sexual magic with women. Any guy tells you that, he's probably full of shit, I've only ever met one guy who actually lives up to that kind of hype and that's Johnny Soporno, who to most people, including myself initially, seems a very unlikely person for that. Not saying there aren't other guys like that out there; I think Zan is like that, along with a few others, I just haven't crossed paths with them.

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"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

A lot of internet marketing is people trying to make a quick buck selling crap. Especially because they are essentially marketing to a global market with the internet. Nowadays anybody can throw together an ebook and sell it for $37 a pop. There's no publishing company that filters out the good and the bad. It makes it easier for the amazing people to be heard, but it also makes it easier for the crap to be published.

I think the good and the bad can also be separated by the intent of the creator. Is the creator trying to change lives and reduce someone's learning curve? Or are they just trying to make a quick buck? Word travels fast, and while the bad still make some money, they aren't having the success they could have if they were more focused on helping instead.

Part of me wonders what would happen if the pickup guys were completely honest... I'm not that great, but I've been working on this for 6 years... here's what you can learn from me.

@Rye Lee, I love the honesty man. Wish more commercial guys would be totally honest.

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