no worries, mate, and props for manning up and apologizing. that's not easy to do (and that's why most dudes never do it).

i'm at fault too for misinterpretations, cos i gave this post an intentionally shit-stirring title so people would read it. i'm a sneaky headline writer like that. but as i think you saw, my point is not that the book was wrong, but that the main message out there about the community is a lie. the idea that having choice with women, defined by picking up girls as often as possible for as many short-term flings as possible, will make you happier than the guy who just "stumbles" into a relationship, is a lie.

i hate that PUAs popularized the idea that guys who get women without using PUA stuff are chumps. I know way more men who are happy with their love lives who have never heard of PUA stuff than you'd ever imagine, and I stand by my statement that I have never met a PUA who seems really happy with his love life.

Possible exceptions: Adam Lyons, Johnny... and a few other people who would never call themselves PUAs.

_________________
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Sean Messenger
http://LVo3.com

"War is not the answer. Love is."

When you described being on the boat, looking at all those houses and feeling envious, I was right there with you.
I've only been through 2 years of 'game' - I stopped after the first year infact, but the lessons stuck.

And that's just it. After Sleeping with a stack of women during that time, and realising i knew HOW I could keep on doing it at my leisure, it gave me that freedom to pursue fidelity with the confidence that
a) I wasn't missing out on anything more
b) I wasn't just making excuses for myself when I settle down.

Alot of these kids new to the game need to get it out their system. They SHOULD fuck around so they discover that there is more to life. Then when that time comes, they can come back here and say 'Yes, Sean, I know what you're saying'

The fact is, You and I have the benefit of experience that these guys don't. So I say, go forth and fuck, for when you're old you'll feel like you missed out if you don't.

im sure most would be happier with their one-true beloved rather than many random hookups. but most AFC's will never get the women of their dreams by just going for it, no regrets etc. . its easy for someone like you sean, who has amazing social skills and overwhelming confidence, to say hed want that one special someone. but for someone who does not have social skills or confidence, its not as simple. that AFC will never, i repeat, NEVER get the girl of his dreams unless he changes himself into a social, confident being. its evolution: women are attracted to confidence and social status, which ensures there chance of surviva. apart from random hookups, thats what the game brings: confidence and social skills. it is deffinetelly not a lie, but rather reverse engineering, diciphering our embedded evolutionary traits that are no longer applicable: if you cold approach a girl now, even if shes taken by another dude, hes not going to kill you with a club, like he would have had you all lived 10000 years ago. its not a lie, and its not the truth, but it is a way to get to the truth (your happiness, that one special someone who you would have never gotten had you not changed yourself into a socially-confident and competent being).

i'm so happy for you sean, youve got what every guy wants. but you shouldnt tell people the game is a hoax. sure they wont find meaning in the random hookups they experience, but eventually, all theyve learned about women and social dynamics will bring them to a point where they can trully aprreciate a "cool chick", and recognize her as such. and thus, they will find both meaning and happiness in that relationship. having gone with 60 women, you know what characteristics in a women make you happy (im not talkin physical characteristics, im talkin emotional and mental). Please answer me this truthfully if you get this: had you not experienced all those relationships, would you trully be as happy wiht your one-and-only, and recognize her as the awesome person she is?

I repeat.

I'm not telling ANYONE to not sleep with a bunch of women. But do NOT buy into the lie that the act of sleeping with a ton of women makes you happy, and do not think that that by itself will lead you to THE one.

Every real "player" I know has the most trouble with committing to one girl cos they are convinced she will cheat on him, just as the girls he hooked up with cheated on someone. It's like the thief who is constantly worried everyone else is trying to rip him off.

And to be honest, I was really pretty damn happy with the third girl I dated. We were together for 3 years, and I screwed it up. But y'know what? She was pretty damn close to perfect for me then. I had more to learn about myself, but I really didn't learn it from dating other women. In fact, most of the women I dated I didn't learn shit from, cos I was repeating the same cycle, dating the same type, and hoping irrationally for a different result.

I know some dudes who found a great girl right at the start. Should those guys be looked down upon cos they didn't fuck 100 skanks first? Hell no. It's just the way it works. Some men never have to go thru feeling like they need to make up for missing out. Hell, that in itself is just a manifestation of feelings of worthlessness.

Truth is, no woman can make you happy. Only you can make you happy, and then you get to share that with other happy people. So if you put most of your energy into having a kick-ass life no matter who is in it, you will find women starting to appear. If, on the other hand, you put more effort into being a kick-ass PUA, you run a very real risk of falling in the trap every PUA I've ever met fell into.

You get into it thinking it will help you find a cool girlfreind, and then you're immersed in a culture that convinces you all women cheat, and 20% of babies have fathers who are not their father, and only the top 1% of men are real men and the rest are all chumps.

Convincing sales tactics, to be sure. Be part of the club, or miss out forever. But I stand by this: I am a very shy, self-conscious, introverted guy who really can't do more than a couple hours per day in social situations. Oh, and I have bi-polar, ADD, and bouts of depression. And I was the same when I was 15 and had no women, and the same when I was 20 and dating 3 girlfriends at the same time.

The things that changed when I was happy with women was that my life had purpose BEYOND women.

I'm not a super-confident social monster. Yes, I have smooth-talking skills, but I learned that just from waiting tables 20 years ago. Pickup didn't teach me that. Pickup taught me how to hide the things that I was told weren't cool, and make up stories about what was supposed to be cool.

If you want to date a lot, DO IT, but do it because you enjoy the process, NOT because you think it makes you cool. The only thing that really makes you happy is your satisfaction with your own life. No one else gives a shit, so you are free to decide what you want, and do not let me, or any PUA, tell you otherwise.


btw, I LOVE this conversation here. This is what a real community is made of.

_________________
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Sean Messenger
http://LVo3.com

"War is not the answer. Love is."

Quick! Name all the PUAs you can think of who have a "cool chick" now and appear to be happy in a one-on-one relationship with her.

I can think of...

Owen Cook (TD)
Wayne Elise (Juggler)
Sean Newman (me )

That's about it. So what's keeping everyone else from going through this "phase" and finding what we all have been saying we want? I mean, if dating is the training wheels, don't you want to take those training wheels off as soon as you can and start riding?

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Sean Messenger
http://LVo3.com

"War is not the answer. Love is."

It all depends on your perspective and where you are in life. I like to meet lots of girls and have fun. I'm not sentimental or very religious and I don't think relationships are accurately portrayed in our culture. I think most people live in a fantasy world that says one women will satisfy your every need. Or that one day every problem you face in life will magically disappear with this secret cure all. Then they ask for your money because most people are suckers and actually believe that stuff. First off this game is based on feeling social acceptance, and also having a good sex life. I'm 24 years old not really young, and not to old. Currently I don't want to be married, but I do like to date and enjoy the company of women. I like to have sex, and I like to meet new people. Single girls usually can be found in clubs, and bars. It's not bad to go to those places to meet people it doesn't make you a drunk, and some can use morality to tell you different but ultimately thats a tool to manipulate you. Personally I don't want to be a full time dating coach I just want to be a school teacher, and enjoy my life. I think theres allot more to life than just picking up girls, but at the same time I love hot women. So in tern I enjoy picking up, and being a teacher you find lots of girls that feel the same way. My g/f's are all bi-sexual I have three. They're all hot and very sex crazed...Some see it as a bad thing because morally women aren't supposed to be sexually expressive or they get put down. The same people that say that are just as full of crap as the people that talk about true love. It's all a big pile of bs and I believe you're wrong about Style, or Mystery. They're just ahead of the curve personally I think natural game is a lie. When I was in hs as a freshman I date girls in college that were hotter than most guys ever get and I had a normal guys love life before pick-up. Some guys would call having g/f's and a normal sex life natural but thats crap. Being a natural is just being your average pua.

p.s. Sleeping with women always makes you happy, dealing with them bitching is another story.

_________________
Girls like me why call yourself a Guru or MPUA either you got it or you don't.
www.realpuas.com

So that's all GOOD! You defined what makes you happy and you go get it.

That's the point.

It's not my trip, but I can dig what you are about. That's cool.

But if Style, for example, is ahead of the curve, then why did he write a book all about how Pickup led him to find the cool girlfriend he always wanted, but he's been pretty single since it was published?

What happened to Mystery's goal of having two bisexual girlfriends, one asian, one blonde?

Why do so many PUAs talk such a big game about all the women they can get, but you never SEE them with women? I've never ever understood that one.

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Sean Messenger
http://LVo3.com

"War is not the answer. Love is."

Personally I think they're living in another world right now I can't speak for them personally but I do know a few weeks ago mystery went out in NYC with a wing of mine in Charlotte, and f-closed the hottest girl in the club on a table in the vip. The guy also has a new baby girl I think his idea of what makes him happy has changed, or maybe he's realized that happiness is just a brief moment of success that results from hard work. I think they find happiness living in ways most people will never understand.

_________________
Girls like me why call yourself a Guru or MPUA either you got it or you don't.
www.realpuas.com

if i get to the point where I'm 38 years old, I have a new baby, and people are bragging on me that I "f-closed the hottest girl in VIP", remind me to shoot myself.

Maybe I'm old-school, but that to me is not what growing up to be a man should be all about. Especially if you're a father. Props to him for all his success, and I wish him all the happiness, but I don't understand that trip at all.

How much is enough? I mean, if you can find a really great girl, why would you need to keep getting new ones? IME, and this is 100% across the board, the very best sex happens when you find a girl you really click with, and you stick with each other for a while, trust each other, learn what makes each other happy, and get your freak on. One night stands have always been, for me, the worst kind of sex.

Not that people in long-term relationships keep it hot all the time, but hell, that's kinda what I'd like to figure out. Seems like most of the planet has done pretty well matching up with one person at a time for longer periods of time... at the very least, it's kinda the only way to raise good kids (all respect to those who are trying to raise kids on their lonesome... but it takes both a masculine AND feminine to show them both sides).

I do not buy the idea that we are supposed to evolve beyond long-term relationships. We grow, and are forced to grow, by being with other people. Just like a golfer learning to groove his game by playing his home course, we learn to groove our game by getting deeper with one person. If you keep changing girls, how deep can you go?


One man's opinion. Respect to differing views.

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Sean Messenger
http://LVo3.com

"War is not the answer. Love is."

Dude! You make me feel old.

I guess I am compared to most of y'all, but better late than never.

_________________
Artax
Devil's Advocate

"You're only as young as the women you feel."
"I am the Master of my unspoken words, and the Slave to those words that should have remained unsaid."

the older the violin, the sweeter the music.

- Captain Augustus McCrae

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Sean Messenger
http://LVo3.com

"War is not the answer. Love is."

It doesn't change the fact that his stuff allows him to get any women he wants just about. So it's obviously not a lie.

_________________
Girls like me why call yourself a Guru or MPUA either you got it or you don't.
www.realpuas.com

The lie he's refering to isn't that you can get lots of women, it's that getting tons of women will magically fix your life and make you happy.

_________________
"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

Getting lots of women can't fix everything in your life but that point is already made by the guys your going after. I understand natural game likes to view itself as different from the more methodical seduction ideas but it's not. I will say having lots of women does make you happy. Nothing is more fun then going out and meeting girls them enjoying your company then being attracted to you. Last night I went out with a buddy and talked for hours with a girl that was a doctor. She was absolutely beautiful very intelligent, and was extremely attracted to me. She was a real challenge because she was so damn smart which I find extremely attractive in girls. Having a girl that pretty and intelligent like me touching me kissing me was awesome! It made me pretty happy and theirs so many amazing women out in the world having tons of them in your life does make you happy. Style isn't as good a pua as mystery in field but the guy is an amazing pua. Also he's one of the best teachers in the game he gets results. The point of teaching seduction is to give people the knowledge to get any women they want so they can have the choice to have a love life of their choosing. It allows your students to gain the skill set required to do that which is to see the girl you want as soon as you walk into a venue and be able to get that one girl. Knowing you have that ability and skill comes from practicing on tons of women. Which makes more sense then teaching to strive for a lesser skill set that ensures their love life is dictated to them.

_________________
Girls like me why call yourself a Guru or MPUA either you got it or you don't.
www.realpuas.com

Agreed agreed agreed.

But it takes more than PUA skills to KEEP a beautiful, intelligent woman. You have learned through your own experience what you want, and what it takes to get it, and you have a genuine LOVE for women.

What always worried me about PUA stuff is I kept getting the sense that gurus didn't actually Love women. They loved the attention, and the flattery, and that feeling you describe of having a new girl interested in them... that ego boost, but that's just a hit off the ego crack pipe, and it always fades. There's never enough.

But the feelings you get when you get close to someone, when you know that woman loves you exactly for who you are, not what you portray, or pretend, or put out there, that stays... that transforms and helps you be more of yourself.

I don't want to put down anyone here. I only know what I've seen and felt in response to the people I've met, and we are all free to choose what we want.

But it's important that we keep those choices open. Men who just want to find a cool, cute, smart girl and have her as a girlfriend should get just as much respect as the guy who bangs the hottest girl in the club in the bathroom, and not have to worry about someone calling him a chump, an AFC, or telling him that it doesn't count cos it was "fool's mate," you know?

Women need real men. It's our job to learn what that is, and then DO it, and BE it.

_________________
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Sean Messenger
http://LVo3.com

"War is not the answer. Love is."