First of all, rape really has very little to do with sex. Do you think every rapist is dirt poor? Why doesn't he just go grab a hooker then? Many rapists are married and many have regular lives outside of their F'd up crimes. What makes rape a crime is the violence and lack of consent. In fact, I'd go as far to say that sex might not even be a "priority" in those weirdos' minds. If they really liked the "sex", then there are many other options.

On the other hand, what the PUA's do is really a proactive form of seeking consent for sex. Now I'm not sure why our sexual lives and verbal lives disagree so much but I don't care. I've already found out that "no" so often time does mean yes. Fuck the PC police and fuck what the moron of a social studies teacher in grade school taught. . . "no" means "no"? Because the truth is that even that little prude teacher wished that there were times when she said "no", that a stronger man would have figured out a classy way to lower her social guards and plowed her pussy to multiple orgasms. Had she met some PUA's in her life, she would have been much more pleasant to deal with . . .

I don't know what the hell crazy ass rapists do but what I look for and what most PUA's look for is consent at every step. She says, "OK kissing but no sex . . ." This is a NO for sex for NOW. However, this is a consent for kissing and other things until she says no. So you run your fingers in her inner thigh . . . her ass . . . you prolong the whole thing so that when you run your finger over her button she goes, "ooooohhhhh. . ." Then you take your hand away. OK . . . so no sex right? This doesn't mean you can't try to take her panties off. But you don't take it off all the way. You rub her a bit but you can't really get access. Who do you think slides the crotch of her panties to the side? You or the girl? This is CONSENT. When she's grabbing your cock and you pretend to fumble with her panties. She WHIPS the thing off. THIS IS CONSENT. She says now, "We shouldn't be doing this. . . this is wrong" and you go, "I'll go get the condom" and she goes "OK". This is consent. This is fun. This is sex. I mean . . . I really see no gray area at all.

Ok so Chief has been begging...yes begging...for my input on this thread. So I hope I don't let him and all you guys down when my POV isnt that great! haha Anywayyyy, here it goes...

From my understanding the theory behind LMR and the tactics to overcome it come from the realization that women really DO want to have sex but are afraid of the social implications. Not just appearing like a slut to everyone, but losing her feminine power in the relationship. Women hold a power in a relationship because they can control when and if sex occurs. Men are typically up for it whenever, but if the girl isn't up for it, you can't force her (rape).

LMR usually occurs the first time (or first couple times) things escalate to sex. They have always taught us "no means no" but I do believe there is a difference between LMR and rape. When a woman is being raped, her "no" is forceful and determining. But with LMR, that "no" is not as serious. Even with rape a "no" may sound less serious at first, but once she understand you aren't stopping she becomes forceful to make it clear. With LMR it is more pushing the guys hands away and saying "nooo" in a playful/whiney voice (she may even be laughing when she says it--i have). He will ask why and she says "because." But she won't leave. She just goes back to relaxing. If he tries it again, she does the same thing but still doesn't leave. There is comfort between them but there are external reasons (what will he think of me, what will others think of me) why she doesnt want to have sex with him. With rape...they are internal reasons.

I am guilty of LMR myself. And in those cases, my reason for resisting was because I was worried that he would no longer value me. I wanted to have have sex with him, but was afraid of social implications--not of what others thought, but what he thought. Some LMR might be for other reasons like she is on her period, she wasn't prepared and didn't shave down there, or she didn't wear cute underwear--yes, I have resisted for those reasons alone before so they do happen.

Though women are saying the same words, "No, no sex" it is the way they are said that makes the difference and that is the tricky part. If she starts to get very serious and angry when she says no, then you need to stop. But if she is still kind of playful it may be that she just isn't turned on enough, but if you make her horny enough then her emotions will overcome her conscious thoughts and she will have sex with you. So with LMR, it isn't that you forced her to do something that she didn't want to do (bc she did want to), you just realized that she was weighing the costs and benefits in her mind and convinced her to forget about the costs.

Hey look what I found:

Peterson, Z.D., Muehlenhard, C.L. (2007) Conceptualizing the “Wantedness” of Women’s Consensual and Nonconsensual Sexual Experiences: Implications for How Women Label Their Experiences With Rape. Journal of Sex Research http://www.sexscience.org/uploads/media/Peterson.pdf

IME, any time the guy is in a way bigger hurry to have sex with a girl THAT night, he's dancing close to the edge of date rape.

There should never ever ever be a reason for LMR to even exist. Seduction is about creating a safe place where both the man and woman feel physically and emotionally free to express themselves sexually.

It's another reason why one-night-stands are way less sexually satisfiying than ongoing relationships, cos you never get the time to really get comfortable with each other.

here's a good rule i like to use: never sleep with her the first time you can. instead, literally SLEEP with her. let her sleep in your arms, in your bed, and don't try to fuck her. Let her feel that it's safe to be wtih you,and she will feel safe being wtih you.

and i know way too many stories of way too many pickup gurus using sleazy tactics to get girls to have sex that night. lots of them involving the old classic, "get her drunk," but worse in this case, they stay sober.

why do you think most pu gurus don't want to meet girls in teh daytime,and instead focus on late-night clubs? drunk girls are more likely to make bad decisions. sad but true.

it's up to us to change the perspective people have of men. even using teh phrase LMR is totally fucked up. if she's "resisting," it's not right.

just imagine you had a buddy who took you out and got you drunk, and you were having a great time, and then he kept insisting you suck his cock.

now imagine said buddy is 100 pounds bigger than you and is carrying a loaded gun. he's not forcing you to do anything, but the threat is real. and you're drunk and wondering what happened, and what to do next.

think you'd "resist?"

_________________
===

Sean Messenger
http://LVo3.com

"War is not the answer. Love is."

This is not ALWAYS true. I will agree that they are less emotionally satisfying, but not always less sexually satisfying.


But I do see, and agree with your point that LMR shouldn't even need to exist. If comfort is established, then she won't resist having sex with you...she will overlook social implications because she is so comfortable with you that she doesn't even care. However, LMR does exist and is possible to overcome even when comfort is not established; by making her horny enough she disregards reason and the lack of comfort she has with you.








[/quote]

SM, do you write for Readers Digest? Just kidding. Your post reminds me of this time a girl "had to" stay over my apartment after a late party because she lived too far away and her office was close to my apartment.

This was the very first night I met her. So I offered her my bed. I took the sofa. I come out of the shower with a towel and she turns her head and body away as to offer me "privacy". There was no way I was pouncing on her that night. I gave her a new toothbrush and a towel and she closed the door.

We saw each other a few times after that in social situations and of course I sparked some sexual interest, got her number, and went for a "date". She comes over and sees two tooth brushes and she goes, "who's toothbrush is that?"

K: That's your toothbrush
G: No it's not, who slept over here?
K: You did 2 weeks ago.
G: (Puzzled look) Why did you save my toothbrush?
K: (Coy smile) Because I knew you'd sleep over my apartment again. . .

She liked that answer. . . a lot.

I didn't have a better answer for, "This box should have 12 condoms. You only have 5. 1 girl 7 times or 7 girls 1 time?" (The nosiest one yet. I suppose girls always keep an account of this crap but just won't say it to your face . . . like this one . . . )

here lemme settle this!


JESUS TITTY FUCKING CHRIST YOU'D HAVE TO BE SOCIALLY INEPT NOT TO REALIZE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SIMPLY TRYING TO GET INTO A GIRLS PANTS AND RAPING HER! FUCKING HELL IF YOU CANT REALIZE THE DIFFERENCE THEN YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY NOT GOING TO GET LAID ANYWAYS CUZ YOUR A MORON!

Why do you think most of these guys come to this site?

This ain't a knock on the forum users here, just saying that a lot of guys are trying to learn these social skills BECAUSE they are socially inept.

We teach them how to become socially adept so they don't end up becoming rapist retards.

Well, hello again.

I just wanted to drop in and thank everyone who contributed their ideas. I think that people see PUA developing into more than what it is. Why have a rape education class for men, when you can replace it with a dating class? It's an incredibly interesting new take on the concept.

Glad to hear there's a positive respect for LMR - though I don't think it's good to assume that women are only repressing themselves. I only mean that it's important to remember that "she wanted it," is the most common rationale of rapists. The reason why no-means-no has been as circulated as it is, because of things like LMR. Partial-penetration no is still no, it's not only a girl worrying about how she's perceived, or indecision. This is something I think needs to be really clarified in the community.

And thanks to Chief for encouraging the discussion. I hope it's ongoing. The PUA movement does have the ability to reduce rape drastically over time, by teaching that patience and respect have a greater and more fulfilling hand in a girl's pants than force. Thanks everyone.

I do admit I have gotten into some wild events in the past, and done some crazy things- but at the end of the day I am (seriously) a Law Abiding member of Society who has much value to bring, espeically with relationships with women.

To answer your immediate question- getting past LMR it is very simple. I prefer the "playfight method". Women instinctively know you can overpower them, we (guys) know we could overpower them- women know that we know we can overpower them anytime.
A playfight (start by throwing her off the bed, locking fingers so that she "accidentially" falls on top of you, you regain control by pinning her down) she will use her legs to get you off and you can "accidentally" fall between them- as you try and "escape" her clutches she pulls you in.
If shes on the couch gets up and comes back, don't allow her to sit down, then repeat above steps.

It is only "fucked up" women who have issues- that fantasise about rape. Usually they end up in therapy with Bipolar Disorder, self harming and all sorts of mental health issues-not cool.
I have seen such women (unfortunatly), and I give them as about as much attention as a beggar.

Most modern women I know have far too much self respect, their own identity and realise they are emotionally intelligent, conscious human beings that find equally Emotionally Intelligent Males on the same path attractive.

For the record Rape constitutes any sexual act against a woman who has not given consent, or is not in a position to refuse sex.
So if you happen to fuck a woman so drunk she can barely stand up- technically you've raped her.- which I is why I stand well clear of drunk women- they're not serious about "making love"