I thought the term "numbers game" just meant that some women will be attracted to you, some won't, so talk to as many as you can til you find the former? Made sense to me.

And I've had both. Since moving in June, I've slept with two women. One was at a bar, probably the sixth or seventh I'd started chatting up at that venue. I was already comfortable, in fact I actually initially flirted with her friend, saw she was more responsive, and just shifted my attention. I figured that's what the numbers game was.

Second girl I chatted up on okcupid, actually. We hit it off, I left for a bar, came back, saw she was still online. Then I just went ahead and told her I could be over at her place in half an hour and she gave me her address and number. I didn't talk to any women at the bar, just wanted to get out of the house. I guess numbers game didn't apply there.

Isn't it possible that there are too many situations to narrow each adventure to a formula? Isn't it possible that, since we're all different, that the fundamentals may not need to be distributed equally? Da fuc?

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I don't know what else to say, i explained it more than enough, for what i known about you, you do what i am saying; an element of numbers game, with seduction and other factors, and from the types of women you mentioned there is a 3rd group the neutral/maybes(need more info)i am sure you do not do this, from the link i posted:


^ that is no pick up, that is insanity, and a waste.....

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If I may cut in here with an attempt to reconcile the two camps on the "numbers game" debate...

As I understand it, pickup, for the most part, styles itself as a science. Perhaps a social science, perhaps an imperfect science, but a science nonetheless. Yes, I understand that there are many who argue it is an art form but, based on the number of posts I see here about "scientific studies" and "evolutionary fact", pickup-as-science is my main premise. Accept or reject it as you will.

Building on that premise, then: current philosophies of science DO NOT suggest that a study "proves" anything at all. All statistics (which are used in every scientific study ever undertaken) are all inferential. When studies say anything is statistically significant, they are saying "Based on what we know about this phenomena already, there was less than a 5% chance of this outcome happening by accident, which is good enough for us to say that there is SUPPORT ONLY for our hypothesis." BUT THERE IS STILL A CHANCE THAT IT DID HAPPEN BY ACCIDENT. All scientific endeavour is a matter of good-enough-until-proven-false, and we only say something is "good enough" based on numbers and statistical likelihoods.

But, is this to say that science is all a bunch of nonsense? That we can't believe any of it, because there is a CHANCE that it could be wrong? That is not how we live our lives at all. After enough studies, enough causal models, enough replication, we generally come to accept these scientific findings as truth, and they do give us a pretty good guide as to how the world works. My understanding of thermodynamics has yet to be completely undermined in my everyday experience.

So, science itself is a never-ending numbers game in pursuit of universal laws. When one theory is shown not to stand up to testing, the theory is altered and tested again, maintaining its status of conditionally-true-until-proven-otherwise. Pickup theorizes on the roots of attraction and attempts to hack them for individuals' benefit. These theories are conditionally-true-until-proven-otherwise. What proves them false? Numbers. Scientists replicate, over and over, until something doesn't fit, then the whole thing is revised and the process repeated. Understanding the universal truth of attraction is, for the moment, a pursuit that is based on a numbers game, but that is not to say that the things we learn from it are not useful.

And, as one final question: Universal laws are perfect, all-encompassing and never wrong. We are working with imperfect methods and measurement (our own memories, our own perceptions, our own routines or pickup methods). Do you think it is possible to find a perfect truth from such imperfect methods?

Short and sweet, Ezo. I don't see the reason for all this over analysing by the other guys. Guys who lack skill and charisma let them do lots of approaches. Everyone has to work with what they have.

The better a guy gets the longer he will stay in set, therefore less sets.

Also doing a lot sets can mean building momentum, and social proofing a room.

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The Jackal an Introduction.
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The Field Reports.
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The Lay Reports.
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^ i am not a big fan of science, i think is a bunch of mental masturbation, i am a big fan of common sense, success and probability...

For example you know that if you open a girl saying: "hey lets fuck" out loud in front of her friends the probability of working will be very low, and if you go ahead and grab her breast, the probability of getting slap will be high...

I am a big fan of what works and the why, combine with a try it yourself approach, and the probability of it working... The science crap to me is like the numbers game fallacy, the difference is that i believe there is an element of numbers game in pick up, my problem is to say pick up its a numbers game. Now imo i am not from the school of an element of science, for me is a bunch of mental masturbation.

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^Nobody is over analyising, we are saying the same thing dude, that is my point, to work on the skill set and charisma(seduction/game), if you just work on the number and never develop the skill set, confidence and charisama and other stuff you will burn yourself out...

50,0000 approaches and the result of the dude that inspire me to make the post, is no pick up.

Just like in sells if anybody could sell then USA,we would not be in an economic crisis, all you got a do is grab a high commission product and play the numbers, if it was that easy, everybody would be a sells man making 100k +. Sells is an art just like pick up and seduction is an art, does it has a number game element, of course, but the goal should not be to become an approaching machine, the goal should be to improve your skill set and all of the other factors that make a person attractive, and with time decrease the approaches were you do not have to really on the numbers.

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This really is an interesting discussion. PU being a numbers game or not.

I have a goal, to close at least 80% of the girls I open. This IS my goal. What I am working for. If I see PU as a numbers game, I will never be able to reach that goal. To reach it I need skills, and I build them by approaching many women, and noting down every single fucking time what I did wrong. Like that I can improve my skills.

Last saturday I had gone sarging in Rotterdam with my Nephew, who has brought me into the game. I approached almost 10 chicks, and got rejected every single fucking time during the mid game. Fun right.

My nephew was just watching, didnt approach any women almost the entire night, but once he did, he number closed. He could do it, because his skills were far better than me and he knew what to say, what to do and how to behave.


My point: PU start with a numbers game, I have to approach many women to build up my skills afterall. But after some time, when you become good, the numbers game changes into a game of skill and the numbers stop mattering that much. My nephew only did 1 approach and he had 1 close. That aint numbers game

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Finally someone understands!

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Labelling and simplifying pick-up just as a numbers game is basically challenging Darwin's Evolution theory.

Yes... you certainly need to approach lots of girls if you want to improve. But let's take a look at what happened with the 50k approach dude.

He was told consequently and multiple times that he was just not there yet. But he didn't think that it was because he missed some realisations, and didn't learn all the possible lessons that all those interactions gave him. You just can't learn pick-up from books. You need personal experience to improve on all the calibration, but if you don't use that experience to improve then it's all in vain. These calibrations are something like this:

Screening(reading BL, knowing which girls are dtf)
Social calibration(your basic communication skills with a set of people.)
Push/Pull calibration(knowing how far you should go with the particular girl)
Calibrating sexual escalation(when would you take the next step)
Closing calibration(when to go for it, handling LMR)

There're lot more... but I just can't list all of them, and I don't even want it because it's not my point.

My point is that poor dude thought he was not there because he hadn't approached enough women, because he had been told so. Never once in his rant does he mention that he stopped, analysed, and tried to learn from those interactions. So all that's happened is he kept telling himself this lie, that he needs to work so hard and approach more and more to practise. Like some social robot.

And in the end, when he was labeled expert, and felt he still wasn't there, he just flipped. He flipped and rationalized it. Approaching 50k women for almost nothing is not something you want to accept. Instead, thinking that pick-up is just a numbers game and that 50k was part of it, is a much more convenient way.

So what did he miss? He missed the point of business, the point of pick-up, and the point of life.

He missed the point of business, that it is essential for any corporation to lie. You'll just never find a marketing that works and is 100% truth. Never. Period. This is not something to be mad at.

He missed the point of pick-up, which is basically bettering yourself in as many areas as possible, not just mindlessly approaching women like some freak-a-droid.

He missed the point of life, which is essentially enjoying it, and making others around you enjoy it.

Why not just enjoy life, get successful with your job, your passions, your hobbies and have fun with friends? Don't you dare fucking tell me that you can't find a girl if you enjoy life because I see people who are generally not good with women, but they enjoy their life and don't care about this, and what not, once in a while they get laid. It's totally cool because it's not their goal of life to get laid every day or to fuck 3000 different women.

And what if that is your goal? Well then you can't just rely on numbers can you? It would be pretty stupid...

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The kid is frustrated cause he just approach approach approach, play the numbers and got burned out. Which is the point of the post... What i boldface is not true at all instinct is like saying all employees steal... A good biz does not need to lie, and one of the most important part of biz is a good reputation, but there will always be a disatisfied customer, that is part of biz.... Anyways, i am sure the kid knew all the theory and did all the approaches etc... But he never really improved caused he just focus on the numbers, instead of devoloping the skill set...


Here is the problem and it happens in religion, politics etc... There are always the extreme right, and the extreme left for example in politics... The right place to be is somewhere in the middle... Then, there is the non believers and the religious nut cases, some non believers are just as fanatics and annoying as the religious nuts.... Both examples and extreme groups in general usually lack some calibration and the right way is to be somewhere in the middle not the extremes...


Then there is the anti pua movement(numbers game), and the pua nut jobs( the i can get any girl i can with pua group).... The truth is somewhere in the middle and part of it is doing some numbers game and some seduction, but the idea that it is all a numbers game is ridiculous and dishonest...The good naturals i know or i have seen do a bit of both, but the number game part is minimal...
For example in any particular night i approach max 10 girls, that is my numbers game. On a bad night i approach maybe max 7, the reason i approach less in a bad night, it is not because of the numbers, i approach less it is because a bad night means there are not women out for whatever reason... I went out last night i approach 5 girls(and i force myself to do this teaching a dude), there were no girls out do to a hurricane coming to South Florida.

Lets look at it as the seduction point of view: A guy that is good with women, enjoys and projects ABUNDANCE which is attractive and in turn gets you more women...

A guy that is going from girl to girl to girl getting rejected project scarcity, which won't get you shit...

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at its core it is a numbers game, the more girls you go through the more you learn how to succeed. thats the numbers game to it. just like everything in life there is way more to it of course and it is always evolving, but it is just about the only thing in PUA that can put it in terms of quantitative reasoning.

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Fire em' up

I haven't read any of the replies so maybe this has been said already but here is the no BS truth about it...

PU is a numbers game but your numbers can improve. When you first start out it may take you 100 approaches to get laid. However, after a while when you become socially calibrated, improved your looks, handled your body language, and you learned how to recognize womens's signals, it may only take you 5 - 10 approaches to get laid.

Its always a numbers game, its just a game you can get more efficient at.

Another analogy is basketball. I fucking suck at basketball! However, just by playing the "numbers game" if I shoot a ball 500 times Im bound to make it a few times. What do you think would happen if Micheal Jordan shot the ball 500 times? He would make it a hell of a lot more than I did. Its still a numbers game, he ha sjust put the effort in to make his numbers better and I haven't.

EDIT: Some people suck at cold approach. These are the people who have approached multiple thousands of woman and have a shitty closing rate. These are the guys that spout the "its all luck" BS.

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I agree, I've also pointed this one out.
Okay... I might accept this. Since I've never been into business, altough I've never ever met a successful company that told the 100% truth and this has never bothered me at all, you may be right. Perhaps I just have bad experience, or perhaps it's just hungarian marketing to lie to the customers.
That's agreed too as I've also said it in my post.
I would take a moment here. You can be extremely religious, or extremely atheist and still not be annoying. I'm a complete atheist, I don't believe in any deities, and I have some friends who are so deeply christians that they truly keep the no sex before marriage and stuff like this. But guess what, we get on with each other very well and we never annoy anyone because we respect each other's believes. I also wouldn't put the religious nuts in this cathegory. Because they never truly follow their religion. They just misinterpret it, and the problem is not their religion, but their pathological psyché.

Though I understand where you are coming from, and I agree with it, it's just the example I didn't like.
Agreed again.

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http://wayoftheplayer.com/become-a-player/instinct

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This is from 60 yoc, which i believe is the person that introduce "the numbers game" concept and it got misunderstood: this is from the book 1 page 18:
Then in the next sentence he contradicts himself and say what i have been saying in this post:

Then in page 20, 60 yoc. Says what i have been saying and gives good explanation that is BOTH, a numbers game and A SKILL, the problem is people repeat repeat repeat, pu is a numbers game, they seem always to leave out the skill part(seduction)...

Finally, and tatoo this in your dick:

The skill part(seduction) it is way more important, and will matter more, than the number part, to the point that the number part will be MINIMAL in seduction

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Learn the proper way to maximize your results in a dancefloor/club environment, check out my blog and youtube channel:
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