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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:40 pm 
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Ok so to sum it up, my relationship with this girl has been extremely rocky and dramatic for the past year. I've been told many times to leave this girl but I keep hoping that the undramatic side of her decides to be the majority side of her.

BUT I have decided to leave her because I see how bad it's turned out.

We both made mistakes in this relationship, but it's come to a pretty bad point and I'm backed into a corner. I'm a complete dumbass for not listening to my friends and leaving her earlier, but I got myself into this mess and I have to dig myself out. I've talked to my parents and friends, but since most of you guys here have rather good opinions on various situations, I would like to ask for your help.

To sum it up, when I first met her she was pregnant with her ex's baby (she said she was going to abort it), but I was going to give her a clean slate without judging her because that's how I believe I should treat someone I first date/meet.
Skipping through our relationship, she's gotten pregnant 3 times with me (long stories, I'd rather spare you guys), with all 3 of them being "abortions she had to pay for". Now she's pressuring me and threatening me to pay for all 3, approximately $1500. My friends have suggested that I ask for proof of medical records and bills, because she told me 2 of them were due to antibiotics/spontaneous abortion (she consumed a lot of bad shit) while 1 of them I know is true. They also suggest that at most I should pay for half instead of the full amount.

I know I'm weak in this situation because I haven't been in such a bad bind. I do understand it is my responsibility that she got pregnant, but with physical threats and others such as "if you don't pick up my calls each time is an extra $100" and bullshit. What do you guys think? I apologize if this message seems like a load of crap or most of it's logic is messy, but my mind is fucked


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:31 pm 
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Location: Winston-Salem, NC
Wow. Anything about the abortion extortion money sounds more like legal advice than PUA stuff. I don't know the laws of your jurisdiction, or even my own for that matter. I am inclined to say, however, that if the abortions are past tense, done and over with, she has no practical way to collect from you. Assuming you get out of her life, take all your stuff, and stay clear of her so that she can't key your car or some such, what's she gonna do, take you to court? I think you should probably take your chances with that, as unless you have some strange laws in your country, any claims that "you said you would pay for her abortion" are an oral contract, a bunch of "he said, she said" and won't stand up in court. You might also consider taking out a restraining order against her if she makes threats to you. Pre-emptively, I think you'd probably look better in the eyes of a court if you took out a restraining order first, rather than her doing it to you, although I don't know how much it matters in practice. My main thought is that it would cool her jets, making her think twice about messing with you.

Get real legal advice from an attorney if you need it.

Also, as far as the morality of whether you should pay for something... it doesn't sound like she's interested in fairness. It sounds like she's interested in extortion, manipulation, and vengeance. Sounds like she wants you to pay for everything, even though it's her body and she decided to do what she did with you, 3 times. So I don't see why making her a "reasonable offer" is going to do you any good. She's not reasonable. When people aren't reasonable, you use lawyers and the force of the law. Or forget about it, letting them go to the trouble of hiring lawyers when they don't have a case. I'm not seeing that morally you owe her much of anything here. Anything that you did owe her, is canceled by her selfish desire to manipulate you into being her bitch.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:22 am 
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While bringing this up with my parents for the first time (man it was nerve racking), we came to the same conclusion as you posted. She has said that she would try to bring me to court, which is probably one of her many threats, but I do know she has no case. However, I believe bringing her to court would be too drastic, but a restraining order might be needed if things explode further than they already have.

For the abortion that I am most confident in her having, I did not whatsoever claim that I would pay for it. In response to the recent threats, I said that I would work on getting some money which was done to calm her down and to try to be reasonable with her. But as you stated, that dug a bigger pit for me and she then demanded for it to be handed to her today. We're in out early twenties so we aren't at a very mature stage yet, hence her immaturity and my naive self. Worse comes to worse, both our parents will talk to each other. But for now, I'll continue to avoid contact with her as much as possible and hopefully nothing drastic happens. Thanks for giving me affirmation bvanevery, and thanks in advance to anyone else who wants to speak their mind regarding my situation. I know this isn't directly PUA related but hey, I find this community quite reliable.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:06 am 
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I know you're on the right trajectory, but out of curiosity I Googled around about the legality of the situation in the USA. It seems there's no law that says "you have to pay half," and furthermore, if she sued she would have to prove you're the father. This is not possible if the embryonic matter is long since discarded; ergo, no case. That may not seem "moral" to some people, but the legality is clear here. Pro-Lifers would also argue that it was immoral for her to get an abortion to begin with, so "morality" is relative in these matters. Some Pro-Choicers might argue that because the woman has the sole right to control her body and choose an abortion, she also has to be prepared to bear those costs herself, as part of the control over her own body.

I stand by my reasoning that because she wants to make life a living hell for you, you owe her nothing. Consider it an implicit "emotional duress" that she's causing you; emotional duress is actually worth money in courts, and it's often expensive. In the scheme of things you're "morally" arguing over what, half of $500 or something? It's not that deep of a "moral" issue for such a small amount of money, considering her behavior. If she smashed your windshield you'd probably pay more out of your pocket just to make her go away, despite the "morality" of her owing you for a broken windshield. Lawyers would cost more than court awards could possibly be worth, so at most you'd take her to small claims court representing yourself, and only if you had ironclad proof that she smashed your windshield.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:26 am 
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Well, I'm in Canada and I don't think the laws regarding a situation such as this are different. If they are then, I guess I'm screwed but I really doubt that. She has stated that she will file a claim and wants to take me to court.

I think she's blowing steam and bullshitting unless she truly believes that it's an obligation for me to owe her $1500. Emotional duress, oh I'm definitely feeling that. I completely agree on the fact that she made these choices herself, whether influenced by something I said or not. The only times I would have made a notion for an abortion were if we got into a huge fight. Also, she makes most of the notions regarding having an abortion and demanding that I pay the full price. However, for the 2 that I am unsure about, I was under the impression that these were not "abortions" that she had to pay for (minus the fact she had to pay prescription for drugs for other issues). Right now my plan is to avoid her and to not allow any contact which could give her the chance to use something against me.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:05 pm 
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Location: Winston-Salem, NC
The Wikipedia article on Canadian abortion law is interesting. Canada is currently in the unique position of having no abortion law whatsoever! The abortion laws it had were all struck down as unconstitutional, and creating any new laws has been a political failure. In Canadian law a man has no say-so in whether a woman can perform an abortion or not. I see no practical difference from the situation I outlined in the USA. She can't prove that you're the father, there's no law that says you owe a woman a dime for an abortion, and you didn't have a written contract with her that you would pay for something. Even if you did, would it be enforceable? "I agree to pay you... well, no, I changed my mind...." You haven't exchanged a service with her, you didn't gain any goods, and I'm guessing that reproduction is not viewed as an injury. You're not liable unless she actually bears live offspring.

It seems to me that the practical reason to pay for any part of a woman's abortion, is before the fact, to get her to do it, so that you won't get stuck having to deal with paternity. After the fact, this may sound cold but, who cares? She had total legal power over her body and the decisionmaking, you did nothing to injure her, and you gained nothing from her procedure, so under what legal theory could she compel you to pay her money for her sole decision?

The only way I can see any man ever having any kind of liability under such laws, is if you both went down to an abortion clinic together, and signed both of your names on the contract for abortion services. If the clinic doesn't get paid then it sues both of you. If it manages to collect from one of you, then the person who paid might sue the person who didn't pay for half of the cost of services. IANAL but I don't see any other possible legal basis. Once the clinic has been paid for their services, I don't even know if you'd have equal financial liability. It's not a rental agreement, it's her body, and the clinic doesn't care who paid them. In any event, simple answer for fellas: don't sign your name on abortion contracts.

The moral decision is whether you should "care about" "helping" her, financially. At this point the answer to that is clearly "no," because of her behavior towards you.


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