maybe we could keep Taoism for a better SPAM and a better environment? What is being said here isn't giving the Religion/Philosophy a very good name.

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[color=red:7c51ae7520]email is a better option: thelockestar@gmail.com[/color:7c51ae7520][/size:7c51ae7520]

Well, Erin pretty much got the jist of it.
As a Taoist I'm going to be so bold to interject... Taoism doesn't really... "condone" anything haha
It just is =P

As an individual Taoist, I do not like murder, genocide, and rape. In fact, I started an Amnesty International club in my high school back in the day and we fervently took action against the genocide in Sudan. However, I do recognize the existance of such hatred, and I think people can become enlightened to act in different ways. For the time being, I accept and embrace.

I actually lead a little private group of PUAs, kinda separate from the rest of the PUA community, and we are a little more focused on the philosophical aspects of pickup. Yes, there are philosophical aspects of pickup. Me being the leader has resulted in a huge integration of Taoism and PUA material within this group. I am also writing a book. Look forward to it.

Erin, I think you will find good friendship here in the PUA community (welcome), especially amongst you, me, and this other user Snubby (aka Zen). He authored "The Zen of Meeting Women," which combines Zen Buddhism and pickup arts. If you didn't know already, Zen Buddhism is basically the combination of Taoism and Buddhism.

I gotta give him credit... he is fueling a significant amount of my inspiration in writing my book and in forming the ideas I write down.

It's good to know that the Taoist concepts are starting to emerge in the PUA community. It'll make it all the more easier for me to propogate these ideas I have later on. =)

I would also like to comment on Erin's "credibility" in her PUA skills. She may have only read one text that's considered to be a book on pickup, but the other texts she have read are the same ones that the mPUAs read to formulate their theories. They are the groundwork for what we know. Also... strippers are the best PUAs in the world. I don't even wanna get into that topic; it's just wayyy fucking ridiculous as to how good they are when it comes to PUA skills.

hehe

Remove yourself from attachments and go with the flow man

Chief, I agree in the fact that Taoism just IS. Just as life.

But what was being said is: because Taoism just IS, then it is fine to do wrong, because there is no right and wrong. Black and White, Yin and Yang. Right, all the pop-stuff. But this is false. Taoism, even though it is a philosophy, also teaches of "goodness" in BEING.

Remove the entire aspect of philosophy and religion...you just have morals. Is manipulation right, is it wrong. Who knows, thats all personal standards.

My point that I AM getting across is that manipulation can be considered poor SPAM of others; and therefore, is negatively viewed in Taoism.

When it comes to other aspects in life and in general...at the broader span of things, sure the basics of Taoism are to accept both yin and yang. But I don't think accepting it is an open invitation to act on either side of that.

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[color=red:7c51ae7520]email is a better option: thelockestar@gmail.com[/color:7c51ae7520][/size:7c51ae7520]

omg... the primordial state means that which is nothingness... A moral means no morals. amoral is the morality of the tao because tao comes before all that which is.... like morals. the tao teaches that once you have reached the way to do good deeds, which is what I do. However, I do good deeds by doing bad deeds that often include doing good deeds. And in the long run those good deeds could end up being bad deeds... I am reminded of one of my favorite taoist fables which i will present to you in highly condensed and slightly variated version:

Thre once was an old man who had a farm. One day his daughter got married off to a rich man. the whole town came and said how fortunate! The old man said: it could be good it could be bad. A few weeks later the girl's body was found, murdered by her new husband. the whole town came to him and said how unfortunate for you! The old man said it could be good, it could be bad. The next day an old rich man came to the man and gave him 15 horses out of pity for the old mans loss. The whole town said, how fortunate for you! The old man said: it could be good it could be bad. A week later the horses escaped their pen and trampled and ate all his crops. The people of the town came and said how unfortunate for you! the old man said it could be good it could be bad. A month later, there was a blaze that spread through the old mans vally, yet he was significantly spared because all his crops had been cleared away.... needless to say what the towns people said... point being that everything could be good or could be bad... including morals and amorality. but that's just the taoist perspective.

I apologize, but I personally do not care for morals. I personally think they get in the way of free thinking, and think that they are infact conformative. I'm on the train of thought to act with the other persons AND your own best interest in mind. Not just one, but both.

Take getting angry for example: Moral will tell you that getting angry is wrong or that you should be honest with your emotions which is not only contradictory and confusing, but it comes from an outer source. The way I would see it however, is that anger can be used as a way to get a point across that someone isn't acting with other peoples AND their own best interest in mind. For example Jesus would often get angry with his desciples. Not because his morals were telling him to be honest with his feelings, but because he was trying to show them something. He knew that he could use his anger to help him get his message across and to help them better understand the gravity of what it was he was trying to teach them.

I guess that could be seen as having A moral, but I don't quite know how to resolve that one into The Way. I guess The Way to do that is to have no care for whether or not I follow my one moral... which in a way I don't, because I am so happy with life as it is, not forming a picture of how it needs to be to be happy. Shit, if you only knew the situation I'm in right now! most people would be miserable, but I hardly even notice cause I'm so busy enjoying and making the best of what I've got.... if you haven't read meth's post called Get Excited... well, it's kind of like that.

Anyhow.... this is just what I understand of the whole thing. And you now know why I post... If you beleive me at least.... which why you wouldn't after reading what I just wrote I don't quite understand how you could not.... any how:

peace love and all that hippie stuff... but most importantly: Namaste,
Erin

Ugh. No dude, thats about as far from what I was saying as you can get. First of all, that's a quote from Californication during an excellent closing scene. Number two, what I was saying is that it doesn't really matter how we get there, in other words, "To each his own." If someone is comfortable with faking their way through existence, and leading a shallow life, that's their decision. The idea is to want to go deeper by your own will, only then can you begin a path of self-mastery.

The truth really is, that as humans all we want in this world is to love and to be loved. We are social beings and that connection is an absolute necessity, people fulfill it in different ways and paths, but the important thing is that in the end you find happiness. That...is what I was saying.
What I was talking about, was not understanding why he was hesitate to have people, more specifically his know that he was into self-improvement. I agree that there can be a stigma with people thinking seduction is bad, and the truth is there are alot of shitty people who use this stuff to get their way and manipulate people. But the fact of the matter remains that there are more people in the community who are here because they are interested in self-improvement more so than a quick piece of ass. So in other words, yes I totally agree. There are gonna be 'good guys' and 'bad guys' in every walk of life, and like they say, statistics mean nothing to the individual. So it's your choice when you come in here and learn to take the light...or the dark path.
Facing and overcoming the negative/dark/etc things in your life always brings about great change in a positive direction. I learned this first hand.

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Amor est Vitae Essentia

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wrote my 'Moral Theory' final paper on this. You fucking rock.

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Amor est Vitae Essentia

That's a very good mindset to have, Locke.

But here's how I view it... with Taoism, manipulation doesn't exist. It's an illusion.

The actions of "bad" people throughout the world are the result of a lack of clarity. Let me explain...

One of Taoism's central beliefs is balance, right? How does Taoism define "goodness in BEING?" Well, let me tell you one way that totally relates to pickup: respect.

The AFC "nice guy" subjects himself to the illusion that he respects others while lacking respect for himself. The "jerk" subjects himself to the illusion that he respects himself while lacking respect for others. Neither of these people have "goodness" because they lack that balance.

The true blue PUA becomes enlightened to respect when he finds that balance, that happy medium, of respecting both himself and others. He becomes "good" as one may define. That is how one really "is."

The lack of balance fails to ...well... exist haha

The coin cannot exist without its two opposite sides. The wheel of a cart cannot function without both the spokes and the empty space between those spokes.

Acts of negativity, such as "manipulation," act against what is real... and subjects whoever is involved to confusion and therefore suffering. The goodness that we are trying to achieve is clarity of this balance I'm talking about.

I hope I communicated my point clearly.

I don't agree.

You cannot simply dismiss the morals and value systems imposed upon you by society. You must question them to determine whether or not they are right for you. In the end, you should have your own morals and a value system congruent to who you are.

Now, as someone who knows a thing or two about Taoism, you should understand that this does not limit your free thinking because you always have room to learn more and mature... so therefore your beliefs can expand into new horizons, gain new perspectives, new insights, and therefore can inspire you to create new decisions... but you will always have morals

Meth.....

I'm just wondering if you took that from another song and or book? It's a really cool thing to say, and I'm thoroughly impressed.

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Okay....Do you think that if there is one who understands this concept can then also use this concept to induce a need to aliviate that suffering? and therefore improve the path twards bliss?

Visualize a scale.... there are two huge cups on each scale... one side represnts yin as in truth and bliss and the other side represents yang as in illusion and suffering. now in order to start filling the cups we put a grain of sand in one side... let's say yang in this case, but then there is a need to put a grain of sand in the yin side to balance.... that's kind of like human nature isn't it? to keep the balance of reality? we see it in the desire to step up to a challenge don't you think? but point being.... it comes down to this concept: you cannot grow without putting in grains of sand, and it is litteraly impossible to sync up putting grains of sand on each side of the scale simultaneously. you think?

It's no wonder that you guys are the way you are. I'm have no pity for those who don't have care for personal morals. If you are true to yourselves then how can you be true to anyone else in this world?

"Your own best interest in mind" so you are saying that you are free to do whatever the fuck you want without regard to anyones feelings or otherwise. I thought the PUA standard was to leave people better than you found them. This obviously is the opposite.

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Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

but J, if you are a Taoist, you obviously don't have to do that...because there is no such thing as BETTER.

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[color=red:7c51ae7520]email is a better option: thelockestar@gmail.com[/color:7c51ae7520][/size:7c51ae7520]

Your post has broadened my perspective, and it has also led to me contemplate a scenario when grains of sand are added at the same time. Cool, huh?

Ok Meth, that is true what you are admitting right now, that everyone has different methods to PUA, which is what this forum is about.

So, with that in mind, quit bashing the different gurus methods and the guys that need them to help them get started. You may say you're not bashing them now, or even here in this thread, but the point is, you do bash that very thing and THAT will end up making noobs feel like they are doing something wrong or make them feel like shit.

So, take your own advice man, and don't bash what they are doing, when they NEED to use canned material and what have you.