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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:00 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:16 pm
Posts: 191
I've met my share of brothers from the community. After sarging with them and watching them in the field, I have seen the same exact things over and over. They all run nearly the exact type of game, and have the same problems. I am not criticizing other people's models, I am just providing a analysis of the EFFECT that these models are having on the bulk of the people I meet. I would estimate about 90% of random community guys I've met fall into this category. Again I emphasize that it is not an inherent flaw in the traditional ASF models, but more how people are interpreting these models, along with other factors related to societal conditioning.

This post will serve to help transition those people who are interested from a "nerd-like" entertainment frame to a smooth natural approach which is inherently more seductive and effective particularly in endgame.

I have not posted anything advanced in a short while, so this post is the culmination of the past few months of my work. Enjoy!


The two fundamental elements of a pickup.
The difference between techniques, mindsets and beliefs.
A paradigm shift for ASF models. A full analysis of pop-ASF game vs. natural game.
Design the frame for endgame
The Continuous Flow of Action.
Related Posts:

Confident Rapport by Seth Parker
Rooting: Problem with the who lies more opener by Neil Strauss
Insights - Thinking beyond the medium by Razorjack
Rewriting the Rules for ASF by Imperfect
1. The Two Fundamental Elements Required for Conscious and Deliberate Pickup.
Any active pickup where the man decides who he wants, approaches her and consciously moves the interaction to sex requires only two things.

They are:

-Strong and unwavering belief that the girl wants him. -An interactive context which can lead to isolation.

The great part about this is that any context will work. This represents the differences between all of the methods you see here on ASF: Be it Gunwitch with his strong rapport assumption and ordinary conversation, or be it Mystery's routines which fit into a precise and linear system. They are both just interactive contexts which can lead to isolation. The true firepower, however is the set of beliefs driving the context.

The reason why there is so much focus on context, is because it is something that can be learned quickly. It's very easy to learn a few jokes and tell a few stories and memorize a few openers. Internalizing good beliefs on the other hand, usually takes months or even years. So you will see some guys on here telling us to ignore the belief / inner game stuff and just develop a strong context. While it may be beneficial to develop a really strong context, we must take care that our execution of techniques isn't inhibiting the growth of good beliefs or installing limiting ones.

The fastest route to mastery is to continue developing strong beliefs and at the same time become familiar with a variety of contexts -- get a lot of experience under your belt. Adopt a really great inner game program, and then go into the field and work your techniques. Learn to handle as many tough situations as possible - large sets, daytime isolation, amogs, direct approaches, etc. Realize it can take quite some time before your beliefs make a significant enough change such that you achieve the kind of success you're really after.

2. Techniques, Mindsets, Beliefs and how they are related.
On the most superficial level, we have techniques. A technique is something that you say or do while interacting with a woman. We all have a great deal of conscious control over which techniques we use. On the flipside, techniques are the least effective part of who you are and quite useless without the deeper levels mindsets and beliefs.

At the very deepest level, we have our beliefs. Beliefs determine your reality, and are shaped by your identity. Unlike techniques, we have very little conscious control over our beliefs. They are so far below the surface of our awareness that it is nearly impossible to change them at will. There are probably zen monks who can consciously affect their beliefs on command, but then again, those guys aren't trying to learn to pick up women on an internet chat board -- to the best of my knowledge, anyway.

Now what most people ignore, are the mindsets behind the techniques. This is the frame through which we deliver our techniques. A mindset determines the internal dialogue that you experience throughout the pickup. A mindset can be applied to a group of techniques, and a group of mindsets is what makes up a belief. Razorjack's thread "Insights - Thinking beyond the medium" provides a great explanation of mindsets. What he refers to as thinking beyond the medium is just assigning a mindset to each group of your techniques. It simplifies your pickup by redirecting your focus of attention. Instead of remembering 20 different technical details, you just have one mental focus - a specific mindset.

Mindsets are easier to change than beliefs, but not as easy to learn as techniques. Exerting conscious control over your mindsets is the most effective way to affect your inner game, since they are in direct contact with your belief system.

Example of a mindset:

Take the c+f line "Whoah, pointy shoes! They're nice, but I feel sorry for the little elf you stole them from, who's now running around barefoot."

You can deliver the line with the mindset "She's hot so I have to show her I'm indifferent / not impressed by her, so she thinks I'm better than her." -or- you can deliver the line with the mindset "I care about this woman, I'm enjoying the interaction, and I am joking with her to make her laugh and feel good."

Obviously the latter is more effective, as the former will come off insecure. Despite the fact that you are saying the same words, because you are using two different states of mind, you'll get two dramatically different results. Not only will your results be worse, but carrying the former mindset around will only do harm to your belief system. It presupposes LOWER VALUE and lack of attraction. No good.

The end goal is to change your beliefs, since they will ultimately have the greatest effect on your game. Simple repetition of techniques without the proper mindsets or with incorrect mindsets will do damage to your belief system. You need to adopt great mindsets to insure proper development of a belief system.

3. ASF Paradigm Shift.
The traditional model in use by the majority of ASFers I've met is the following:

-Assume that girls must be "hooked" in order to be interested in you. (Sometimes true to varying degrees) -Approach with prepared opinion opener designed to engage girls, meanwhile feigning disinterest. -Assume since you're approaching her, she's automatically more valuable, so... -Go right into story to in order to display higher value, which will generate the attraction which was previously not present. -Continue to tell stories, tease girls until you get clear indication of interest. -Phase shift into "rapport / comfort" which consists of ordinary conversation, dropping the personality she was interested in initially. -Bait her into qualifying herself to you, and no matter what she says, SOI her for that. (This step ain't so bad) -Isolate and escalate. (This one isn't either :)

Six Common Sticking Points in Execution of the Traditional Model.
Sticking Point #1.
The first problem with this approach is that people mouth canned openers without a context for them. Style had an entire post dedicated to this point alone, so I won't go into detail here. (Rooting - problem with the who lies more opener)

If you want to use opinion openers either: A. Genuinely care about the topic. -or- B. Make sure it's obvious that the opinion opener is just an excuse to talk to her. (In this case, ask it and then quickly change topics)

Sticking Point #2.
Secondly, guys spend hours and hours on this website, learning material, preparing a routine stack which is designed to engage girls. These guys go out of their way to learn these girly topics of conversation which the majority of us aren't really interested in, just to get female attention. And then on top of that, they pretend that they aren't really interested in fucking the girls! Then, the moment they "stack" these girly openers and DHV's, she's CONVINCED they want something and she knows exactly what they are up to. Feigning disinterest now becomes highly incongruent. I mean seriously. To go out of your way to learn girly topics of conversation, just to have permission to talk to chicks is SUPPLICATION. Entering a females reality just so we can talk to her for a few minutes with the hopes of fucking her is ridiculous!

Here's an analogy. What if a girl went out of her way to learn all about sports or cars or (insert masculine topic here), even though she didn't really like or understand these things - just so she could relate to guys in conversation? This girl doesn't really care about these things, but is pretending to, and spending hours and hours on the internet learning about them, just so she has permission to talk to guys. Does this telegraph that she has an interesting life? Is she telegraphing that she is a valued commodity? NO! Exactly the opposite. If a girl like this came up to me, and talked about things that interested me, I might engage her for a bit, but would I be ATTRACTED TO HER? Hell no. Now what if she kept changing subjects and kept desperately trying to find something I wanted to talk about... would that make me more likely to find her interesting?

It may appear to work marvelously because it gets new guys into set, because now they are actually talking to girls whereas previously they stood there and did nothing, having absolutely zero context. But the majority of people reading this do not need that kind of content to be interesting to women. Learning girly topics of conversation WILL get you to open more sets consistently - but it's under an entertainment / girlfriend frame, and while things will seem great that night, she will be almost guaranteed to flake. You won't get laid.

I've questioned SHBs (after I've slept with them and they're more honest) about this. These are girls who go out and are almost always the hottest girls in the club, wherever they go. This is what one of them told me:

"Yeah sometimes we talk to guys out of pity. If a guy seems really weird or is dressed gay or something, we'll talk to him just so we can laugh about him later. It's fun. He thinks he's getting somewhere, but then at the end we run away from him laughing."

Girls will talk to sufficiently weird enough guys who "seem gay" for THEIR OWN ENTERTAINMENT. This is a fact, and very common with hot girls. They will sit there and eye code each other, loving it, not because they are sexually attracted, but OUT OF PITY. Don't design your game so that you are becoming this type of guy. Sure you are opening more sets, but it's for the wrong reason.

Sticking Point #3.
Demonstrating Higher Value. The reason why this is detrimental once again goes back to the mindset behind it. Feeling the need to demonstrate higher value is the same feeling that an AFC has when he starts bragging about his job or car or girls he's banging. Sure, you are using a more sophisticated technique, but the mindset and beliefs behind it are EXACTLY THE SAME.

Never go out of your way to demonstrate higher value. Assume higher value! You're the fucking man! You have higher value automatically!

I tell plenty of stories in set, but I do it for fun, because I'm having fun doing it -- not with the intent of "proving myself" to the girl.

Sticking Point #4.
It is impossible to fake disinterest 100% of the time. Even if you memorize 5 stories, 3 teases and absolutely MASTER the backturn, it doesn't matter because you'll fail the next test she throws at you. Women are CONTINUALLY testing guys they are attracted to, and most of it doesn't fit a predetermined pattern -- IT's NONVERBAL. I get tested all the time by women. They're thinking "Who the fuck does he think he is, this skinny little fucker... I'm gonna see if he's for real. I hope he's not wasting my time." So they have to test you. They don't want to fuck some ingenuine guy that faked the first 10 minutes really well. You have got to be the real deal through and through, my friend. And faking any more than you can back up, will just insight more intense tests which you are bound to fail.

Don't fake disinterest unless you can back it up 100%.

Sticking Point #5.
Relying on IOI's in order feel like it's *on*, instead of assuming attraction. Thinking too much and calculating your behavior based on watching for IOI's. Don't wait around for IOI's before feeling good about the sarge. Her interest will be based on your vibe anyway, and if your vibe is dependent on watching for predetermined IOI's, then you are leaving it up to chance.

Let's face it, most IOI's that people look for are pretty ordinary behaviors that women exhibit when you talk to them anyway. Some of the popular one's I've heard are:

She asks you where you're from - This is one of the most common pieces of smalltalk when you're first getting to know each other. She may be asking you this just to be friendly, it doesn't mean she wants to fuck you.

She touches you - women are actually more likely to touch you if they aren't as attracted to you, as a way of playing with you. If a woman senses extremely high value, and is a bit intimidated, she is less likely to touch you. She is also less likely to touch you first if you are very direct. Of course, if you don't even have a chance, she won't touch you at all. Either way, unreliable as an IOI.

Remember, one of the two things necessary in pickup is the belief that the girl wants you. It may be difficult to believe at first but keep reminding yourself of this, and train yourself to see *everything* she does as an IOI. Is she looking at you when you talk? It's on. Is she contributing to the conversation? It's on. Is she standing in your physical proximity? It's ON!

Sticking Point #6.
Dropping the personality that initially attracted her as a part of a "phase shift", mistakenly thinking it takes X amount of time to attract a woman, or feeling the need to "transition into" X,Y or Z.

It sounds like three different points, but really they all stem from the same type of beliefs and mindsets. They come from leftover society programming like "It takes a long time for women to become attracted." or "Men have to earn a woman's attention and attraction."

If you do actually do well to convey a fun personality to a chick in the first few moments of meeting her, such that she is attracted to you, you should maintain that same fun personality while getting to know her better and deepening your connection. Intersperse your c+f and playfullness with your rapport. But at all costs, stay congruent and do not become someone else entirely.

On the flip side, do not stay in a perpetual attraction stage where you are running material for the upwards of 10 - 20 minutes. That is WAY too long. If you use a couple of fun pieces to open a set, and they respond well to that, they have already made a positive judgement of you. Keep it light on the material and rely more on sharing positive energy with the set, and particularly your target.

Also a lot of people believe that you need a 'transition' to do certain things - especially kinesthetic related actions like touching, kissing, and cavemanning. You do not need a transition for these types of things. You just need to do them with the full certainty that she will enjoy it. Decide what you are going to do, and do it like you mean it.

Natural Game.
If you're going to make the transition to natural game, start out simple. It takes some getting used to, and requires attention on a couple of different levels. It may seem awkward at first, especially if you are use to the traditional indirect game model discussed above. But if you work with it and gain even just a baseline competence, you will:

-Improve your closing rate, avoiding 'sexless frames' -Reduce your flaking -Focus more on the interaction and enjoying the process -Allow your true attractive personality to bloom -Develop an incredible belief system

If you would still prefer an indirect type of approach based on routines and canned material, it would surely be beneficial to implement these mindsets anyway, along with correcting all of the previously mentioned sticking points. It can do nothing but improve your results.

Of course there are some differences that some may consider to be drawbacks:

-Her initial impression of you becomes increasingly important and is predominantly visual and auditory based. This doesn't mean you have to be good looking, but it does mean you need a tight "image" including style, bodylanguage, tonality and facial expressions. She is going to size you up based on your energy and vibe, and will interpret everything you say through that filter.

-There is no more masking insecurities behind indirect techniques. You will be forced to confront your limiting beliefs head on, and handle them once and for all. I actually think this is an advantage, but it may be scary for some people to confront their deepest fears and depend on their core identity to attract women. Guys with self-hatred issues and poor self image may shy from this type of thing, telling themselves it would never work, despite the fact that it is the solution to all of their problems.

-Your opening percentage will be lower. You will get blown out faster from certain sets. You can persist on these, but it is likely that they would have not led to anything anyway. In this way, it acts as an efficiency screen and which saves you from wasting your time.

Naturalized Seduction Model
1. Assume Attraction, adopt mindset that you are going use your personality to make her feel great. 2. Open direct. This includes direct compliments on her beauty or remarks about the environment, or even a simple "Hi." If you are still hesitant to use direct openers, ask her for an opinion that you're actually curious about. Your opening bodylanguage MUST be congruent to your intentions. 3. Go directly to a vibing / rapport type of interaction. Be playful with her and get to know her. If you tell stories, make sure they're fun, and not meant to impress her. Lead the interaction via a continuous flow of action. (explained below) 4. Lead smoothly and confidently to escalation. This could mean you instadate her, venuechange her or close her. 5. Repeat steps 3 and 4, until you isolate and fuck her.

This is a very simple structure, but it's effectiveness depends on the mindsets in the next section.

4. Designing the Frame for Endgame

Natural game is based more on mindsets than anything else. Adopt the mindsets, and allow the techniques to flow. You will find yourself inventing your own tips and tricks and posting them on here for others to check out.

Mindsets are essential to any game, particularly one with minimal structure such as the Naturalized Seduction Model.

The game starts before you walk up. A woman's impression of you is largely determined by what she sees before you open your mouth - that combined with the impression you make on her in the first few seconds upon opening. People have a tendency to generalize the type of person you are as fast as possible, which makes everything in the beginning very influential on the remainder of the interaction. I think that it is often downplayed how important it is to have a very strong visual image based on your style, dress and bodylanguage. You will hear girls often saying 'he was cute so I talked to him' or 'he was cute so I let my girlfriend stay and talk to him'. Do NOT underestimate the impression you are making visually. We talk all the time on here about it being a limiting belief that you do not need to be handsome, but that does NOT apply to your style, overall grooming and bodylanguage. This stuff is vital.

One of the reasons why I avoid opinion openers is because of the subtle frame of *needing something from someone*. Sometimes I think they are about a half step up from a person in the mall asking you for a few moments to fill out a survey -- very unromantic and asexual. This is just me however, and I do know a few guys who use them with great success because of their high consistency of opening. It is a matter of preference, I suppose but I like to start the romantic vibe from the very instant I walk up. I don't give up any power by needing someone's opinion - the girl's #1 objective is to IMPRESS ME from the very start.

Teasing, C+F, Busting:
Some people don't like to combine this type of thing with their direct game. To me, this is one of the best parts about direct game. I love teasing and busting on girls. The beauty is, if you are running a direct game, she KNOWS you're just playing with her.

The way I like to think about it is 'floating' your indirect tech (c+f, MCR, busting, push/pull) above a very solid and confident direct vibe. That is you are vibing direct with your bl, facial expressions, warm tonality, but at the same time having fun with her. You are making her feel good through humor because you enjoy her.

Affecting her Emotions:
It is a well known fact that we should engage girls on an emotional level. Touch her emotions. Trigger her emotions, yet people are still confused about how to actually do this. You don't 'talk about emotions' with her. You cause her to experience different emotions through a variety of ways. Off the top of my head I can think of:

-Displaying your emotions through facial expression and tonality when you tell stories -Talking about your passions, let's her have a taste of your potential emotions directed toward her -Being unpredictable, her uncertainty will cause emotional response in her -Creating situations where she experiences an emotion (ex. SOI'ing her and then not calling her for a few days - she's ecstatic, and then curious and scared)

There is no set structure to pick-up. We are artists, remember? You are creating the experience for her so that it is unique. It's fine to follow a predictable structure at the lower levels, but it's like a kata in martial arts. When it comes down to real world situations, while having a loose structure you must adapt and improvise in an aesthetic way. Take pride in your work and create a wonderful EXPERIENCE for the woman. Give her the fantasy. Allow her dreams to come true. Be that man she's been waiting for.

Closing / Venuechanging:
The state of mind you should have when interacting with a chick should be one of 'relaxed and relished certainty'. Don't rush things. Don't 'watch' for IOI's. In other words, you shouldn't be dependent on her, or too reactive to her. Imagine being a hunter with a high powered rifle, and you're hunting a dear in some enclosed space. You know that any moment you CAN kill the dear - but instead you choose to relax and enjoy the experience because of that certainty. You continue to relish in the experience, enjoy the chase, and do it when at the absolute perfect moment. It also reminds me of having some kind of dessert or maybe a delicious bottle of champagne that you could open at any moment and enjoy, but you put it off, because you're enjoying the anticipation so much. Treat closing a woman exactly the same as these types of moments. Enjoy your interaction with her being 100% certain that it will lead where you want it to later on.

5. The Continuous Flow of Action
One thing I am realizing over and over again:

*The time factor is completely irrelevant to pickup.*

Time is usually a huge limiting belief for most people. People generally feel that girls need some quantity of time in order to:

-become attracted -become comfortable -leave a venue with you -provide contact information that won't flake -become turned on

This again, is leftover society programming. Let go of the need to make pickup difficult or complicated. In some ways it is kinda complex, but release the desire to make it so.

My flaking ratio is very good. Not 100% perfect, but pretty damn close. The average time it takes for me to get a non-flaking phone number is between 30 seconds and 5 minutes. No more - it's just not necessary. Let me explain why:

After a first meeting, she is going to walk away with some kind of impression - a memory of the encounter. Now the way the mind works, is that it distorts time around really strong impressions. We remember each event as a series of mental pictures and sounds with varying intensities. The intensity is determined by the emotions present at the time, and how rare or scarce those emotions are. If you walk up to her like no man ever has, and completely rock her world for a few moments, thrilling her with your masculine vibe, she will never forget you!

Thinking back to the encounter, it's very hard to determine time objectively. She's not thinking "Well, he walked up, and said a few things to me, but only stayed and talked for 3 minutes. I don't think I should meet with him - that's not enough time." What she is thinking is "Wow, this guy came up to me, and he was amazing. It was so romantic and seemed so right. He was cute, charming, and he made me feel so good. I can't wait to see him again!"

Only do what you need to create a strong impression on her - and that impression is completely time-independent. It is more based on:

Visual Impression / Identity - BL, style, facial expressions Auditory Impression - tonality, pacing and rhythm Emotional Content - vibe, connection, expression of emotion Continuous Flow of Action ->

The Continuous Flow of Action is a fancy way of explaining 'smoothness', and it achieves a couple different things: -Let's you take the lead and control the encounter -Allows her logical mind to shut off -Let's her trust you and feel comfortable immediately -Makes everything seem 'right' and natural

A continuous flow of action is best described by a LACK of the following things: -weird pauses and indecision -hesitation -waiting -looking for approval or other responses (IOI's) -overanalysis -overthinking

While you should not do these things, it is even more important that SHE does not do these things. In order to achieve a continuous flow of action, you need a minimal structure, quick responses and a lot of confidence. I will illustrate with a few examples.

Cold Approach (Assuming time is important)
Guy walks up, delivers opener goes into story.
Girl reacts positively.
Guy feels he needs more attraction, goes into another story, irrelevant to first one.
Girl reacts positively again.
Guy waits, thinks of what to do next.
Guy starts getting some rapport, asks questions.
Guy waits some more thinking he needs more time for a solid close.
Guy asks some more questions, unsure if she's attracted enough, looking for IOI's.
Girl is confused about his lack of confidence and doesn't understand his true intentions so says she's gotta go.
Guy tries last ditch effort and attempts to close.
Girl doesn't give number, because she's being congruent with step 9.
Cold Approach (Continuous Flow of Action)
Guy walks up, delivers opener goes into story.
Girl reacts positively.
Without hesitation, guy immediately starts to connect, asking basic questions. (School, work, etc)
Guy teases a bit about her answers.
Guy realizes he doesn't have much to say, so gets to the point.
Guy says "Well I'm off to meet some friends, but let's do coffee sometime."
Because guy is clear and confident, girl agrees, solid close.
Back to your place (Assuming time is important)
Guy walks girl into his place.
Girl sits down on couch, guy does also.
Guy thinks about what routine he needs to spike BT.
Guy starts spouting non-sequitur routine to give her time to be turned on.
Girl confused, closes up a bit.
Guy not seeing IOI's, waits, thinks of another routine, starts to deliver it.
Girl gets up and says she has to go.
Back to your place (Continuous Flow of Action)
Guy walks girl to his place.
Guy tells girl to take her shoes off.
Guy sits her in front of the tv, and turns it on.
Guy goes to fridge and prepares 2 glasses of red wine.
Guy comes back and toasts to good times.
Guy tells short joke, girl laughs.
Guy goes for kiss.
The idea is that you provide her with instructions at every point and make it clear how she should respond. Intentions are always clear, actions are always confident and calculated. The man knows the entire plan from point A to point B, and always assumes she's ready to go. No hesitation, no indecisiveness. This is truly what attracts women - much much more than *any* canned material. Her emotions are engaged 150% on overdrive. You are putting her IN THE ROMANCE NOVEL.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:00 pm 
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really great stuff man.

"He is god, he will understand. And if he does not, then he is not god, and we need not worry." Pick-Up Labs, lots of cool shit guys, free!

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:46 am 
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bloody brilliant, it really show the game as an art not a science

They call me The Bandit because I've been know to steal a few hearts.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:01 am 
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good post will reread later

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:54 am 
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Hey H-wood.

I've read a lot of your stuff and I really dig where you're coming from. I had some thoughts recently and I wanted to see if my head is headed in the right direction.

There's a lot of stuff out there on new routines people are passing back and forth. Canned openers, canned DHV stories and games.

As I spent a few days trying to memorize and find comfort using canned openers, I remembered something I think Mystery said about using this stuff as a framework. In other words, what that said to me is that I need to take the basic structure and build my game into it. I.e. Use openers that are true to me (opinions I'm really curious about). Use stories I've lived and highlight the DHV aspects. Come up with my own games and anecdotes.

I spent the last three days really trying to milk my brain for openers that are real for me and I'm feeling very confident about the direction I'm headed. Since I'm opening congruent I feel congruent. I come off relaxed and that leads to more legitimate attraction. I feel relaxed because there's no memorization. Even if I mix my words up, it's easy to get back on track because it's coming from my thoughts and not my memory.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:17 am 
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This is a great post. Natural game is what I aim to transition to, because everything else is just incongruent with my core identity at varying levels.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:37 pm 
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Welcome to the movement. I would say that most people are finding out (myself included) that running routines and scripts is not congruent with ones self and are switching to a more natural style. They are using Bola (body Language) and tonality to DHV and are using more direct openers which if said confidently having much more potency then "Question, do you know what colors are in the rainbow".
On a sad note however, having natural game is a very difficult place to start. If you are already a natural it is because you are pre programmed with great body language and vocals tones that could seduce a banshee. The is the basis of inner or natural game is to project a display of non-neediness and ultimate confidence.

HW great post which could go on for pages and pages. Keep it up, because you are in the midst of a movement that will change PU forever.


Everyone should always be seeking self-improvement

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:29 pm 
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Are you saying that using the MM techniques is incongruent with "natural game"? Maybe I'm making a stretch here. My thoughts don't always make a logical jump so sometimes they come off as "out there". That's just what I read into what you wrote.

Are you suggesting that, if we deviate from the "canned routines" chances are we're running natural game and therefore all the rules are changed?

I hope not. If so, maybe it's easier to sacrifice congruency. But... I know I can't seduce a banshee. But I don't know where I'm at in my game.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:15 pm 
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Congruence is defined as when goals, values, thoughts, behaviors, the conscious and unconscious minds are in rapport or agreement. Now lets dive into this a little more with out me writing a novel :)

The rules of pick up are not changing as much as evolving. Using material such as MM, style, savoy are the best ways to move towards congruency. To be congruent is to be inline with your "inner game". having to memorize lines in not utilizing you inner game and the attributes that you already have. Everyone has a DHV story, but to get started its sometimes easier to use someone else. We all have ways of building comfort, but sometimes its easier to use lines that we know work and have been tested.

PU is not like reading the instructions on how to set up a VRC (there is only one way to do it) but more like building a clay vase (many ways and options). how ever there are basic instructions on how to do both. (maybe not the best analogy haha). You need to figure out what you can bring to the table and then amplify the seductive qualities. That is seductive congruency. Taking what you have and turning it into inner game that shows though your outer game. Using lines helps build inner game, and having inner game helps build out game, and having better outer game helps build congruency within. See where I'm going with that.

Quick personal story
When I first started PUA I read MM like most and was blow away by the results. My buddies would always ask though what do you do after the first couple dates when your PUA material wheres out. And they would also tell me that using the material was just not me (but hey it produced results:) Then as I got better I didn't need as many lines and was able to do more direct openers opposed to question openers. i was then able to bring in more aspects of my actual life and knowledge which gave me allot more confidence. This confidence helped me greatly with my inner game and made PU much easier because it was me, just a better more seductive me.

As far as where you are i think Saffron breaks it down best:
# Be comfortable with Approaching Strangers (IG)
# Open and Carry on a Conversation with Women (OG)
# Work on Body Language and Tonality in an attempt to convey friendliness and dominance (IG)
# Appear comfortable and not creepy (IG + OG)
# Convey the best parts of your personality through stories to build attraction (IG + OG)
# Develop and use routines (not vital. must be seen as more of a crutch for when you brainfart)

# Be comfortable with your sexuality (IG)
# Directly convey your sexuality (OG)
# Properly Deal with AMOGs (OG+IG)
# Effectively deal with shit tests and CBs (OG+IG)
# Pump a woman's state (OG)
# Think ahead logistically (OG)
# Can your own material (I think that this is important, so that you can keep track of the variables and focus on what needs work)
# Act, talk, move and think dominantly (IG)
# Be non-needy (IG)
# Develop an attractive Identity (IG)

# Express your attractive identity (OG)
# Create a Social Bubble at every venue that others are dying to get in (IG+OG)
# Develop an iron-clad frame (IG)
# Understand how to be the prize -- (OG+IG: push/pull?)
# Create a powerful social circle and learn how to effectively social proof (OG)
# Be Amazing at Sex (IG+OG)
# Calibrate your material/BL/tonality properly based on a woman's interactions (OG+IG)
# Create and manage a Harem OR find a LTR (OG)
# Teach others what you've learned (IG+OG)

I hope that this helps you guys.

Everyone should always be seeking self-improvement

 Post subject: nice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:56 pm 
Member of MPUA Forum

Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:16 pm
Posts: 191
Bravo, simply well done. This break down is near perfect !!


 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:15 am 
New to MPUA Forum

Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:21 pm
Posts: 20
Location: Cheshire, UK
Aint that the damn truth! Great post - I much prefer going out with the assumption that I am the man cos, well, I am THE man 8)

The routines are great for a bit of additional material but they're the window dressing over the real stuff behind it - the core belief system that is, in and of itself, attractive to women - cos if you have it you'll be displaying the outer behaviors anyway.


 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:23 am 
Member of MPUA Forum

Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:46 pm
Posts: 160
Location: Delaware
Are there any e-books on natural game? Or is it something you have to witness in person?

How would you recommend improving your inner game?

 Post subject: Hey
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:28 pm 
Member of MPUA Forum

Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:16 pm
Posts: 191
Are there any e-books on natural game? Or is it something you have to witness in person?

How would you recommend improving your inner game?

Umm do you have to witness natural game? NO. Natural game is just being yourself to your own unique full potential. It will come with time.
By you watching someone else’s natural game. How could this effect you since it's the other persons natural game. You might as well just read Eric’s MM again. Since this is his developed natural game now

Inner Game

We all know how important INNER GAME is, but have you ever stopped to ask yourself what Inner Game actually is? Is it simply when I memorized material very well or maybe when I perfected the delivery of my voice?

Actually, Inner Game is based on confidence, beliefs, and your overall attitude about life. Whether you realize it or not, your attitude is constantly projected to the women you talk to. If you have a strong, assertive, and positive attitude, women will naturally be attracted to you. That's how most naturals GET LAID.

They develop these three aspects of their identity: confidence, beliefs, and attitude. When this happens, they begin to feel more confident and they start to behave like they're the prize, which is exactly what ATTRACTS WOMAN.

I enjoy analyzing these ideas, and I recently found something crazy below the surface. People in general love leaders, especially women. Leaders are naturally attractive because they radiate confidence and not easily concerned with outside criticism.

They know exactly what they want and focus their energies on achieving their goal. I am willing to teach you how to become a leader, how to make people follow you and even respect you. These steps are essential to leading a successful life.

I am 25 years old, but what I have lived through, you cannot even imagine. I believe I've learned a lot in these 25 years--possibly more wisdom than the average Joe acquires in his entire lifetime.

The first observation is that charisma does not exist. People do not know how to describe something that is intangible, so they say this person has "charisma", or "this guy is a charismatic person". If you take the time to observe charismatic people, you see that they actually have one big quality in common.

They have a frame (or point of view) so strong that people are sucked into their reality. Everything they do reflects an ultra-strong frame that exists inside their individual reality. They tend to have a lot of rules that you must follow when you are around them. They treat themselves with integrity and they absolutely will not tolerate disrespect; in fact they punish it.

You can apply these characteristics to your own life. They are actually core lessons for living successfully on this planet. Let's take respect for example: How do you ensure that the people around you show respect for you and your work? First start to respect yourself and your work too.

When you start to respect yourself completely, other people will respect you as well. If you don't respect yourself, why in the world would anyone else respect you? If you treat yourself like shit, trust me, other people will do the same because you are sending a strong signal to the world that shit is just what you are.

Next, what you must accomplish is to develop a set of unwavering rules in your life that define what people can and cannot do around you or to you. You must punish any negative behavior that impedes upon your integrity. Tell them you disapprove and make it crystal clear that they cannot behave like that if they want to be in your company.

Kick their asses for it. Make them know they did something that you do not respect. If people treat you like shit and you let them get away with it, they will do it again and again. Other people see this, and learn to disrespect you also. Make personal boundaries for yourself, and make it clear to the people around you that these boundaries must be respected. Humans are social pack animals, meaning they will accept the strongest frame presented to them.

For example, if my girlfriend flakes on me, of course I will be pissed off, but I will show her that I am angry and will calmly state that it will not happen again. For everything that she does that I do not like, I tell her she can do it only 3 times: the first time, the last time and never again! My rules are strict.

People will enjoy the time they spend with me. In return I will do everything I can for their happiness. I will teach them and have fun with them, but there are some rules you must follow, otherwise you won't see me ever again.

I make options for myself, so that you are not my only choice and I can go out with someone else if I choose. For now, even if you don't have other options, make it look like you do. Behave like you do. I am going to do everything for my girls. I love them and will treat them like a queen, but only as long as I think they deserve it.

It is funny to see how, when women don't get what they want, they call me a jerk. They make not like my rules, but they will respect me if I stick to them.

Take a look at the police. They have strict rules. Break them and you'll get punished, and trust me, you won't make the same mistake again in your life. I want you to do the same in your own life. Let people around you know what is allowed and what is not. Otherwise nobody is going to respect you.

It is funny, but people will test you from time to time to see if you are still congruent with your frame. That is why I say that "shit tests" are not problematic. As long as you are congruent with your frame, shit tests are a non-issue. Women will challenge you all the time when you are seducing them. That's just normal behavior.

My best friend has this cute little dog. The pet knows that it is not allowed to sleep on the sofa because he got his ass kicked a few times, and still months later he comes near the sofa with his cute little look. He glances at the sofa, then his owner, the sofa, the owner, just waiting for a reaction.

He might even put one leg close to the sofa, the whole time looking at his owner. What the dog is actually doing is testing his owner to see if he is still congruent with his rule about sleeping on the sofa. Is he going to allow him to jump on the sofa or is he going to yell at him? The dog is not giving his owner shit, just making sure he is still congruent.

Children will test you in the same way. Every couple of days, or even hours, they will challenge you to see if the rules have weakened or changed. You can observe this behavior everywhere in nature.

Now, let's get back to charismatic people. It's funny, but the more rules charismatic people have, and the more they punish those who break their rules, the more charismatic they appear. A negative examples would be Hitler, while positive examples like Christ, Gandhi, the Dalai Lama and Martin Luther King. Being assertive does not make you good or evil. It gives you power, and you choose how to use it.

These leaders issue commands and demand unquestioning loyalty. Challenging their ideas is strongly condemned and often leads to some type of emotional or physical punishment. With women, you give them pleasure and show them a really nice time when they are with you, but you must also remember to punish any negative behavior or disrespect from her.

So the first step toward developing confidence, belief, and attitude is to start respecting yourself! If you have ever gone out with me, you will notice something really unusual: as soon as I go into a set, I am not sucked into their frame. I do not live in their world. You will see that they live in my world. How do you see this?

When I approach a set or any group of people, I don't position myself so the whole group can hear me. I don't try to yell so the whole group can hear me. First, I position myself in the most comfortable position, where I feel the most relaxed. Then I reorganize the other people around me in a way I like.

For example, I approach them, have them open up to me, sit down, and use the space around
me to make myself comfortable. Then, I might position the extra people to talk to each other, while the target is left to talk to me. This behavior is not something I modeled or learned, but it's been a part of my personality for a long time.

I really can't stand people who have a weak frame. For example, I hate to see guys fall into a situation like this: A guy sits in a chair, maybe one that is totally uncomfortable like the letter S, and he stays there for hours pretending he is relaxed without saying a word about it. He would rather sit there no matter what because the chair is more important than who he is.

It is more important than his health or his body... sad. Why the F**k should I be in some uncomfortable position when I talk with some average frustrated woman? What the F**k is she for me?

You will always see me in the most comfortable position you can imagine, while I am in a set or anywhere in life. Why? For a few reasons: You can't be nervous when you are in a relaxed position. You must feel cool. People will see you as a socially cool guy. More importantly, your voice is going to be deeper and more relaxed, so that people will start to lean in to hear you.

If you drop your voice down when they can't hear you, they will start to lean in and pay more attention to your lips in order to understand what you are saying. Looking at someone's lips for ten minutes is REALLY SEXUAL.


 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:42 pm 
Member of MPUA Forum

Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:46 pm
Posts: 160
Location: Delaware
I didn't say um! :roll: This does sound appealling and I do like having rules. Although I never really enforced them before, that much. And as a result I have gotten walked over. So if the goal is to be come a "natural", I would assume improving your "inner game" with a deep understanding of the basics will lead that way? Basically enhance the personality you already have to become attractive to more people?

Your really making me want to meet you sometime. Although I'm a little worried you might talk for hours, if your posts are any indications. ;-) Just playing with you.

 Post subject: GOT IT
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:17 pm 
Member of MPUA Forum

Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:16 pm
Posts: 191
You got it now friend !!!


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