I know there are probably several examples of both DHVs and DLVS but I'm wondering if any of the following can be considered DLVs. I would really like to find out the truth about these things once and for all. THanks.

DLVs or not?:

opening car doors
opening doors(of any kind)
standing up when she stands up(say at a table at a restuarant)
taking off her coat; helping her with any article of clothing or just helping her in general
doing favors for her(eg. washing her dog, mowing her lawn or any kind of household chore).
paying for dates(paying for her dinner, movies etc.)
paying for anything
asking her if you can buy her something(eg. a beer or anything)or just buying her stuff.

I know some of these are shit tests but some are very common things that many women seem to expect or want a man to do. My opinion is that you shouldn't do any of these things if they aren't doing them for you because that would be giving her the value and taking away yours. Any thoughts?

_________________
Mike

Actually, if handled incorrectly, every single one of these is a DLV, but if handled correctly, you can turn most of them into a DHV. If you give her hoops to jump through first, and she jumps through them, it's not so much a DLV. But, you can't just do this stuff all the time, either.

See to me they all seem like common courtesy (excpt the paying thing and doing stuff) so I actually mean holding doors open. How is that a DLV? To make this a double barrelled response how do you get her to jump through hoops before, say, opening a door for her?

Opening a door for a woman is a DLV when you run past her to beat her to
the door, knocking over her and innocent bystanders in the process.

Otherwise, it's pretty much just being a gentleman.

Jesus the DLV version sounds like a scene from 'A fish called Wanda' HAHA!

an example of getting her to hoop, is to say "Im gonna take you out to eat tonight, you just have to agree to cook for me in the near future" - is she says o.k. its good. . . if she says no, "so youre some kinda freeloader?"

Well I personally think a lot of these things are DLVs but I guess there is no consensus. It seems to me that anything a man does for a womanthat she doesn't do for him (or before he does it)is a DLV. Women however don't seem to see it this way they just see it as being polite or gentlemanly but it definitely seems like you are lowering your value if you do it(regardless of what they say). So basically it amounts to a darned if you darned if you don't kind of thing. So how can you do these things in an alpha way that doesn't convey lower status?

_________________
Mike

NO NO NO, you can't say "if I take PAY tonight, you have to promise me to cook for me next week". It doesn't work that way. She HAS to jump through the hoop FIRST.

Mike, you are right in that most of these things are DLV's because most guys just do it to be a gentleman.

Jack, the problem is that these actions show that you are putting the woman on a pedestool, which is AFC.

If you do it LATER in the relationship you could get away with it. But right off the bat, no. At least not until she has jumped through a hoop of yours FIRST.

L.A. tripp has a valid point if done incorectly they are dlv because these acts of expected manners really make you like a.)chump b.)cheezy so really if you want to put a spin on them do it but make sure its noticed i.e. opening the door PUA: What a gentleman I am! I think this really is an advantage to turn these acts of kindness into dhv's but adding a cockfunny more cocky tho.. attitude to them

If done with the right dramatic, cocky/funny flare some of those don't need hoops, but hoops are definitely useable for all of them. Aside from things like opening doors. If I'm with a girl, I'm leading, I'm in charge, I'm dominant (thats how she likes it) and so I'm walking through doors first, not to be a gentleman, but because I enter the room ahead of her as a show of dominance and protection (couldn't come up with the right word to describe what I mean for once, this is as close as I could think of). When I enter a door ahead of her, I'm gonna hold it open long enough for her to get comfortably inside and can take over holding the door (same as you do for any stranger going into a restaurant or something) its just common courtesy at this point.

_________________
"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

I'm not sure where to start but you guys are really off base for some of these.

A lot of these depend on where you are at in the relationship. Did you just meet them? Are you in rapport, comfort?

These things matter.

I open building doors for girls. They walk through and wait for me. I continue leading. If they do not wait, I tell them to stop and then continue to lead.

I open car doors for girls as well. I do this to make sure they are safe in the car before I leave them.

Buying stuff for them is self explanatory and talked about enough in other threads. I never ask if I can do anything though. I just do it.

You all need to remember that DHV/DLV applies to just more than the target itself. It also applies to a comparison of other guys.

Cocky funny has its place but you do not need to do it always.

_________________
Recommended reading list.

Double Your Dating by DD
(This will work on your inner game)

http://www.freewebs.com/xfman/
(This will work on your outer game)

Ummm, ahem . . .
Hmmmmmmmm . . .

L.A. Tripp, you quoted somebody but I'm not sure who. Were you speaking of Lashram01's comment? If so, continuing with that example, how do you get her to jump through your hoop first? What is wrong with his tactic?

What's wrong with that tactic is she HAS to jump through your hoop FIRST. If not, she can ALWAYS and EASILY back out. Your hoop MUST come first. Otherwise, you've just DLVed yourself and you now look AFC. You've lost control of your frame.

To get her to jump through a hoop first, give her something that she can do RIGHT THEN AND THERE, or at the very least, BEFORE you would actually be going to dinner. It can be pretty much anything, as long as it's something YOU tell her to do, on YOUR time and terms.

Okay, I see now ... though this would not be a RIGHT THEN AND THERE thing, but just continuing with that example, get her to cook you dinner first (say for a first date) before taking her out to eat on some future night.