That speaks nothing about his need, they're just threats. Seriously you're dumb, does anyone actually pay for your guidance?

You're fortunate Neo, RC, Jack, or myself aren't moderating as you'd have been banned long ago on account of offering piss poor advice. Your presence is merely tolerated, much like one would tolerate a screaming baby on an airplane.

Mature replies, Void.

Every poster here has their own unique take on things.

_________________
Pickup coach. PM for direct, simple coaching.

This is the kind of thing I take issue with when it comes to communicating with women. You teach a guy to hold their cards to their chest is telling him to be fear based. "Don't say too much because women will dump you." No, you learn how to communicate without fear of being dumped. Experience has taught me that I can say what I feel on just about anything as long as there is a "why" I feel a certain way behind it. Emotional men simply need how to communicate emotion without it being a weakness. Believe me, I get where you are coming from but it's pretty much short term.

_________________
mpuaforum.proboards.com

Actually..... no...when he said these things she left her bf and was planning her life with him. I'm not saying these quasi ultimatums were a good move, but she didnt dump him or become less available when he made them. She moved closer to him.
Look Arch, I cant discuss an incorrect series of events with you. I'll clarify the series of events as OP has stated

He told chick months in to figure her shit out etc, she left bf and planned life with him.
Even at this point, he offered space, told her she should be single.
He continued to have her see there were other chicks in his life.
He left to go overseas, and STILL let her continue to be the initiator.
She STILL became less available, and AFTER this for a while, he asked her why she was being so formal.

Now, you can continue saying his ultimatums got him dumped but truth is, she became less available as he gave her more space.

Lol, this chick:
Was cheating on bf long distance
Had issues in her life and was in therapy
Was afraid of OP leaving
Was afraid OP wasnt long term potential

But nah...if OP leaves to go overseas and she decreases communication, its because he asked why are you being so formal AFTER she was being less available?! Lol, all those things going on, rebounding, cheating, fear....nah...it was the "formal" question that killed it. That sounds crazy.

Umm no...because there are multiple women. And I dont say this ONE woman is hot and not obese so let me scheme a relationship at any cost. I date multiple woman I'm attracted to, and SCREEN for compatibility. Emotional compatibility and sexual compatibility. Some chicks like to play games, some chicks have ex baggage, some chicks are selfish...I dont date these women. Nor do I accept these things and try to change her into a different woman. I express honestly, and date chicks who express honestly. There are more than enough attractive non game playing women out there for me to not play games.
You need to look at what you say and whether it makes sense. I agree, be a patient valuable man who has options letting things play out organically. Thats what I'm saying...be honest and true to your desires.

That's ORGANIC.

You use the word organic, when you have rules tied to it lol. "You cant do this," "you cant do that", "you'll get dumped"....youre basically saying let things be organic but you cant do xyz so dont, but its still organic? I'm advocating yes let things be organic ie natural, dont be afraid to do or say what you want and naturally gravitate to women on the same page as you. Gravitate to women who share your values, dont HIDE your values because "young socially valuable women allow few mistakes" and then still call all of this organic. As Ive said before Arch, you advocate alot of fear based dating strategies all to keep from getting dumped and continue having sex with a certain girl because nooo, you cant risk upsetting her or being real with her because she may fuck someone else. And tbh, thats not my issue with your advice, its that you try to redefine words and call this method dominant and organic, when its passive and fearful. All OP asked was why was she being so formal, and if months in you're afraid to ask a girl a question, AFTER she already is being distant then wow. Whats the point of all that working out, reading, sex god stuff, if you're afraid of girls dumping you over asking why so formal today?

Arch, truth is, I agree with much of what you say, its just that what you say contradicts itself.

I agree men should be active, busy and doing their own thing, hence why I think you shouldnt waste time on a chick.

I agree men should be emotionally centered, hence why I think you shouldnt be afraid to say whats on your mind if you are emotionally centered. If I tell a chick anything and she takes that to be needy, too much or a turn off...its her being wrong, because I know I'm not coming from that place. Some chicks may think trying to fuck them first date makes me a perv, why would I care and why would I then be ashamed of what I want?

I agree men should be dominant, hence I think YOU set the tone of what relationship you want, from the first interaction, not go with what SHE wants because then she'll stop fucking you.

Like seriously, you sound so afraid of getting rejected or not having sex with a young woman...why do you care if she stops sleeping with you or what she thinks? You're older than these women, more established and you seriously have rules for what you can and cant do? Sorry man, I really dont care about what a chick thinks, much less a 20 year old. And there's not a shortage of attractive women out there to make me start tip toeing. I really wish you'd drop the rules and get it.

Your gender scripts/'frames' are screwy. They are dominance (fear) based predicated on the belief that the man must always have the upper hand. This is your lens, so rather than understand how speaking of one's needs demonstrates strength and courage, you instead view it as weakness and placating behavior. This couldn't be further from the truth.

Spilling of one's guts has nothing to do with speaking one's need. You draw no distinction. Women don't dump men for speaking their truth (needs), rather they do so when a guy is constantly looking for validation to assuage their insecurities.

It is off putting behavior in general looking with-out/outside one's self rather than within. This is the whole scarcity vs abundance mentality. A person with an abundance mindset still values the connection he has with others, but his very being is not contingent on whether a person approves of his actions or not. Someone with a scarcity mindset, on the other hand, becomes a chameleon of sorts, mold himself to whatever he feels the object of his desire wants.


A PATIENT, VALUABLE man (or woman for that matter) speaks their truth regardless of how another may react.

Think of it this way you can save yourself an awful lot of time to speak your needs from the get-go than be someone else for a while only to get 'rejected' for being you later on.

If I am dating someone there's no shame to my game in voicing my needs, values, and expectations for the relationship. If she finds that "needy" or too much then I can thank her for not wasting my time.

Why be silent in a relationship? Why be silent when getting to know someone? What are you afraid of? Losing them?

All that is is Ego-attachment, its not love or anything resembling it. That's why your go to is fear-based strategies and tactics, always vying to keep the upper hand.

I m not saying this to sting you, but there's a reason why a guy in his 40s is messing around with early 20 somethings. Have you had many long term relationships? Have you ever been married? While I am not stating marriage is for everyone (clearly its not), it SEEMS that you're unconsciously or consciously drawn to these young girls and their behavior reinforces your fear-based approach.

It's like avoidants and anxious types being drawn to each other, each reinforcing the other's beliefs about relationships; the avoidant seeks distance from their partner to 'cool-off' believing that others are trying to 'trap' them or rob them of their autonomy. And the anxious type who seeks reaffirmation from their partner is there for them and wants closeness believes they're unlovable when their partner (the avoidant) pulls away/withdraws. When both are triggered you can clearly see how one re-affirms the other's distorted belief.

You attract who you attract based on your unconscious rules. Fear-based beliefs are not conducive in any way, shape, or form in building healthy adult relationships.

The underlying belief "If I am myself, I will get rejected. Therefore I am not enough."

Playing cards close to your chest = framing a relationship as a game to be 'won', people are out to eff you up especially women, there is only an "I" in the relationship not a "we" or any sense of partnership, revealing the wrong card or mistakeningly calling your partner (the other player's) bluff can have disastrous results.

Sounds scary. I am glad I m not the one holding onto such a crippling, life-force draining mindset.

Wrong. Nothing to do with what I said.

Again your comprehension skills are causing you to distort my statements. Hopefully the above clarified things for you.

Right, but in order to be with a woman consistently, you do have to invest some time and energy.
Most guys don't act this way, though, and this forum is for them. Most guys blow up a woman's phone and become unhinged.

Any woman who thinks that isn't worth my time, IMHO.
While I agree with you in spirit, I don't think this is a practical approach to early courtship that provides the results you want.

It is important to stand out early on, and no be the needy, emotional. paranoid weird guys that most women see. It's important to remain emotionally-centered and to let things happen organically. Most guys get nexted because they don't do this.




I think this is a dishonest mentality in pickup. It's well-meaning and sounds good on paper, but out there in the field, it's a hollow Hallmark card.

The truth is, we DO care what a woman thinks when we're sitting at the bar, horny as hell. Our goal for that night is to have sex with a beautiful woman. We want to succeed. We're investing our valuable time into the evening. We do care.

There's a big difference between caring about succeeding in your investments, and fearing outcome.

and any guy who's sitting at a bar, who has a chance with a 20-something Victoria Secret model, who blows it and then says "o well, don't care" is a liar, lol.

_________________
Pickup coach. PM for direct, simple coaching.

Void, have you honestly been reading this forum?

Most of the guys who post here get their asses nexted and dumped for "being themselves". They can't be themselves and be successful with women, because they're neurotic and uncentered.

So for men who have this problem (IE most of them) "keeping your cards to your chest" is a way to train yourself to become less impulsive, and more centered. It's not about power, nor is it about controlling women. It's about self-improvement for the man.

_________________
Pickup coach. PM for direct, simple coaching.

I think you need to elaborate on this. You say it a lot but don't delve into what it means. By definition, when one is to say something happens organically (outside of agriculture), it means that there is a harmony between the two sides. If a guy is changing his personality in order to keep from getting "nexted", by definition that isn't organic. Not communicating because you're afraid she'll drop you isn't organic.

You do understand that you can communicate what you want from a woman without being needy, emotional, paranoid or weird, right? The guys that are best at pickup are the guys who know how to communicate confidently and without fear.

_________________
mpuaforum.proboards.com

In the context of this forum, the guys have to change their personality, or they will keep having women run from them.

If you're needy, too impulsive, emotional, controlling, etc, you will never improve with women, and you will never improve internally. These men have to change.

When I say "let it happen organically", I'm talking about the courtship, and the courtship into a potential relationship. Neurotic men will blow up a woman's phone, invest too much, try to control her into a relationship right away, and get dumped, rather than letting the early courtship breathe and build organically through fun times and positivity.

Many, many attractive women will tell men, as if the men are little puppy dogs, "let it happen", or "let it build". They are saying the same thing I am.

Have you read this forum?



There's no reason to feel it necessary to communicate your "needs" the first few weeks you've met a woman. This is uncentered behavior. You don't even know her, you aren't in a relationship. There's no reason to set parameters or have serious talks.

At all.

_________________
Pickup coach. PM for direct, simple coaching.

This is one of the most polarizing things ive seen. The whole reason why I posted in the first place was because i was stuck between what you guys are arguing about. Wait and see if she reinitiates first, or understand that this is the the natural ebb and flow of relationships and it requires a degree of give and take. Theres sense in both arguments but the application of them isnt so one dimensional. Im just a guy on the internet but Ive had plenty of women in my life. I have no issues cutting people off. My gut and your responses pushed me to send a text today, not on account of neediness but as someone mentioned peace of mind. Depending on how that goes I'll make up my mind on what to do. I'll post updates as they come and we can see who had the right idea.

_________________
Dream as if you'll live forever, Live as if you'll die today - JD

So you're telling men with fundamentally flawed personalities to let things flow organically.::How exactly will that get them to a place of building a relationship with a woman?

Arch go out into the field and date women, rather than freshly post pubescent impressionable and inexperienced girls. Till then you'll keep peddlng your laughably cliche alpha male mantra to those desperate for a quick fix.

That's not necessarily the truth. There is the option of learning how to communicate in a way that will keep women from running away. This is a lot easier than not communicating or living in fear of scaring them away. You're old enough to have heard the phrase, "it's not what you say but how you say it." No one here advises a guy to blow up a woman's phone, invest too much, or try to control her. And again, the point is learning how to communicate and not avoid it. Communication is natural in the courtship process. While you call guys neurotic, I'd say that they are more concerned with losing the woman and do unattractive things causing the inevitable. The mentality that you have is operating on that same fear of losing a woman. The thing that you will find out by learning how to communicate is that women usually conform to what you want and what you're looking for (at least for a few months). This is where you are confused about what is being said. No one is saying to not let things happen. For instance, I always tell women that I hope that I find a girl that'll make me want to settle down but I never tell a woman that I want to settle down with her right now. Most of the time, these women will do things to show that they are the type of woman that I could settle down with. To me, that's organic.Of course I've read it. The thing that I know is that not all the guys are not neurotic as you like to diagnose. I also know that most of the guys aren't so off the deep end, with some exceptions, that all they need are tweaks on how they approach things instead of having to rebuild the entire way that they deal with women.LMAO. You understand how bad this is right? You see communicating as setting parameters and serious talks. No one is saying that. It's just what you're interpreting.

_________________
mpuaforum.proboards.com