So I just read an article:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... crets.html

Apparently JMULV changed his name and formed a new company to promote some product.

So this guy likes to go from 0 to 100 on resistant women. If she is resistant to a kiss he will whip his dick out and start masturbating. In the article he was arrested and convicted of conspiracy to attempt coercion.

A particular passage stuck out to me.

How persistent is too persistent?

Call me a pussy, but I'm not willing to risk rape/sexual assault charges to lay a particular girl.

_________________
I am a hunter of human excellence. I seek out those individuals who break the norms
and demonstrate to all of us what’s really possible. I learn what those few
extraordinary individuals do that’s different from everybody else, and then emulate
them.

Just stick to the basics and use common sense. Don't have sex with anyone before there is mutual consent. If you do something and she says "no" or "stop", then give her the respect she deserves and stop doing whatever it is you are doing that made her tell you no. The guys who get in trouble are the ones who try to push an interaction faster than it should go and at some point ignored those one or both of those two important rules. If you follow those two rules and have the decency to give a short but genuine apology if ever accidentally do something that begins to make her feel a bit uncomfortable, then you will be fine. And finally, avoid any and all advice that sounds questionable to you because there is a lot of crap advice being thrown around.

The thing is. It's really women who have created characters like this.

Your advice is nice. It sounds good on paper. I don't apologies for pushing an interaction. Simply because I don't have anything to apologize for. I'm not one to give apologies when I don't mean them. The way I escalate on women is a step by step process that leads to sex. When they stop me I just back track a step and play there for a while then go for the next step. Wash and repeat until she leaves or gives in. But I don't stop escalating until she gives in or leaves.

Anyone who has been with enough women will tell you that the sex does not always happen smoothly. A lot of times it IS about overcoming objection after objection until she is fine with it. Or she leaves. Either case I never apologize, because I HAVE to do these things as a man. I have nothing to be apologetic for.

It's a balancing act.

The difference here is that, these guys don't have balancing acts. They put the pedal to the metal and ignore all objections trying to crash through the walls like the juggernaut.

It's still sexual escalation though. So it's the same thing that we all do even if the method is different.

Thinking about this now...I'm starting to question if sexual escalation is legal at all.. I mean technically if you isolate a girl and then you try to kiss her and she objects to you trying to kiss her then she could press charges for sexual assault, correct... A better example would be if you are kissing her then you touch her ass and she moves your hand away. That's technically sexual assault right?

You made contact with her ass and it was unwanted.

_________________
I am a hunter of human excellence. I seek out those individuals who break the norms
and demonstrate to all of us what’s really possible. I learn what those few
extraordinary individuals do that’s different from everybody else, and then emulate
them.

Thank you for bringing this up. This is a sensitive topic, and it would be great if some experienced people could weigh in on rapeyness (spelling for a made-up word?) vs. persistence. I'm new here, so apologies if this has already been thoroughly discussed earlier. A friend of mine is a talented pick up artist, smooth as hell, has no trouble getting laid on first dates, of which he has many. The women he's with seem like they are having fun, too.

However, during the last couple years, three women have approached me complaining that he violated them in some way, or saying that they wouldn't be surprised if he was eventually arrested on rape charges. I dug deeper, and here were the specific complaints:

Woman 1: He acted like he respected her decision not to have sex, but then kept pushing further and further until she gave in, a choice she regretted and saw as stemming directly out of his manipulative behavior.

Woman 2 and 3 did not have sex with him, but were upset that he tried to overcome their refusals to A. go up to his room (he had found out her favorite candy before then, and kept it upstairs for the purpose), and to B. have more alcohol than she was comfortable drinking.

What are your thoughts in general, and specifically for those cases?

I just realized that this is in a no Noob question section. So, is it a noob question or not?

Don't worry about this shit! that is my suggestion... The problem with your friend and many dudes is probably how he made them feel post fuck in number 1, she probably felt used...

2 his timing was off (calibration) and the pushing for alcohol is weak shit, look for some other role model. With that being said they could be backwards rationalizing... Again don't worry about this shit! i never been accused of rape and i pull my dick out and jerk off and do all types of crazy shit... Just be aware on how women are feeling at every point in time, be with women that are into you, and turn women on and sexually aroused to the point that is mutual shit.....

women will often say no, to not be seen as slut/too easy, you need to know if is a shit test ( a bit of resistance) or if is a real stop(i do not want to do it i do not feel comfortable). Again with experience and even without experience by vibe and body language you should be able to distinguish which one it is.

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Yeah I think common sense comes into play. if you think you're going to far you probably are

Common sense does not apply.

Common sense would tell you to stop and issue an apology when the girl throws up any resistance.

I haven't had one get up and leave on me since I've learned proper escalation.

The leaving happened when I was just winging it.

The thing here is that guys are being taught to ignore resistance all together, and to escalate more drastically when the resistance comes as opposed to dialing it back a step.

Apparently skills has used this method. Using the cop-out that you will understand when you gain experience. So what about when a guy without experience like ruhri is in the learning process, or someone with even less experience than him?

They get taught to ignore resistance and push further. "It's only a shit test." They will blindly follow the advice taking it as truth from the gurus. Learning their lesson and gaining experience through a girl pressing charges. Like what happened to this guy.

_________________
I am a hunter of human excellence. I seek out those individuals who break the norms
and demonstrate to all of us what’s really possible. I learn what those few
extraordinary individuals do that’s different from everybody else, and then emulate
them.

I think the better route, which would get rid of an argument, is explain what you mean about the proper escalation that you've mentioned. It's kind of unfair to say that skills' answer was a cop-out and at the same time not elaborate on the knowledge that you have that will prevent the problem from ever happening.

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Sure I'll elaborate. I hadn't because I didn't want to make this thread about me, but the concept of JMULV's borderline illegal escalation model. I don't even think it's borderline. I think you can fully be charged for ignoring resistance and escalating further...whipping your dick out and masturbating in front of a resistant girl. Indecent exposure, sexual harassment...the list goes on. Then if the girl just gives in unwillingly solely due to your relentlessness thinking she has no alternatives, that's not overcoming shit tests...it's called rape.

Anyway, what I do is a fusion of several concepts. If you've read any of my other thoughts surrounding developing your game you know I take a Bruce Lee mindset to it. Test theories, keep what works, discard what doesn't then build on what you already have. I forget which part came from where but it's a fusion of some of my own experiences, vindicalo's escalation ladder, and micro escalation.

I always open the conversation with some form of contact. This lets me know how receptive the girl will be from the get go so I can move on quickly if she balks at me touching her. I do it in a natural way so as it's not coming off forced but part of my personality.

In my opening words I'll touch her arm when emphasizing a point, shake her hand after introducing myself, or give her a high five. Then as I talk I'll mix in light brushes on her arm or touches when emphasizing points, but not on every point I emphasize so it doesn't look forced. You can sort of feel when it's appropriate. For the scientific minded, I'll do it in 1 of every 4-5 points I make and not at a static interval but dynamically. Meaning something like point with touch, point, point, point, point with touch, point, point, point with touch, point, point, point, point, point, etc.

Depending on the intensity of IOI and if I get before I start talking I may skip this step and go directly to the more overt touching. This is to just get her comfortable with me touching her in a non romantic way.

The first few time she might react to the touches, as long as she isn't throwing you disgusted looks just ignore the reactions and she'll soon stop reacting at all. She's comfortable with the touch. This does not always happen, she might not react at all when you touch her the first time.

During this period I'm talking about superficial stuff if I'm going indirect. If I used a direct approach the first level would be skipped. Lets say I'm indirect for the purposes of trying to map this out for you all. Right now I'm getting her used to me touching her and am talking about superficial BS just vibing and making her laugh. Nothing serious. I might throw in a teasing comment here and there.

She'll say something that isn't congruent with the tone of the conversation. Something that is meant to impress me. Like what school she went to, or her job, or some hobby she might think I'll like. This is her qualifying herself to me. Some girls won't at which point I have a few methods to force a qualification out of her. When she has made a qualifying statement I give her a quick one arm side hug around the shoulder.

Then the conversation switches from BS vibing into us sharing likes dislikes and hobbies. At this stage I use more romantic touching. I'll give her a full frontal hug the next time she says something I like. I've got different tricks that lead to the hug. One is giving her another high five when she says something then holding on her hand calling it a hand hug for about 5 seconds then telling her she might as well give me a real hug. Another is just simply saying "You get a hug for that." then hugging her.

When the hug happens the next thing depends on whether it's in a club or on the streets.

In the club: I'll make sure I'm standing so that our legs are touching each other. This is where I'll use micro escalation. I'll break the hug but leave one arm behind her back and continue to talk for a few lines. Then the arm on her back wraps up to her shoulder, and continue to talk for a few lines. Then I mover my other arm to the back of her neck and I move in to talk into her ear, and continue to talk for a few lines. Next I'll switch between her ears while talking allowing our cheeks to touch, , and continue to talk for a few lines do this. Finally, I'll move in as if I'm about to kiss her then change directions at the last minute doing the cheek ear thing and continue to talk for a few lines.

Explaining the kino requires me to explain the conversation too. I hadn't realized how long this post would get before I started typing. Thanks a lot JACK!

Anyway, if she is in the optimal condition for extraction (been in the club for an hour, friends aren't around us, she answered "I don't know." To my question of what her plans where after she left the club) I'll set up an after party and escort her outside either arm in arm or holding her hand. I usually get a taxi because 1 I don't have a car (nor do I want one) and 2 in order to keep the kino going.

I'll have her rest her head on my shoulder. or put her legs over mine. While talking I'm now emphasizing points by placing my hand on the back of her neck and getting eye to eye. I'm also pinching her cheeks. I am purposely not kissing her. When we arrive at my place when I have her comfortably sitting on my couch We'll talk with her legs over mine or her head on my shoulder, and I'll do the hand behind the head thing, but this time go in for a kiss, if she turns slightly I'll change direction at the last minute and talk into her ear like I did at the club. So she won't know whether I was actually trying to go for a kiss or not. Thus no rejection occured.

I'll do this until she does not turn away, could be on the next go. If she turns her head a bunch of times before not moving then the kiss will be a quick peck because I stole it, and I'll break the tension with a line like "It's like kissing my mom." This is because this chick for some reason doesn't like kissing. But still the kiss has been accomplished you don't have to kiss her lips again the entire night, but now the door is open to everything else.

If she didn't resist the kiss at all then I make out for a few moments.

After the lips have touched now I'll kiss her neck. The base of the neck above her chest seems to be the best starting place. There is a spot there that turns women on. It's not always in the same place or on the same side. I'll kiss and suck on one side of her neck. If she is cool with kissing I'll move back to her mouth, then the other side. If she gave me hell just to get a peck I'll skip her mouth entirely and switch between the right and left side of her neck.

BTW during this process after the kiss if she resists the next step just go back to the last step and stay there for a few minutes then try the next step again. - This is the difference between rape and overcoming LMR.

Anyway, there is no set number of how many times you have to back up say at the current step, then try the next step again. It's different for each women. Some will allow you to proceed smoothly. Others will be extremely resistant. I've had women where I've spent 2 hours doing this with. I've learned to enjoy the escalation and not worry about the end result because you'll get bored, but the woman won't. It's about building her comfort levels.

Next, while distracting her with the neck triangle I'll lift her shirt up and mine and let out bellies touch. This excites women so much. This type of touch she only experiences while having sex.

I'll stay there for a few minutes.
Then I'll go down and stimulate her body by kissing her stomach. You can grab her tits at this point, but some women are very sensitive about their tits and it could kill the mood. So I usually just skip the breasts.

Next. I'll innocently stimulate her pussy by accidentally brushing it with my arm or leg a few times.

I'll mix stimulating her body with the kiss triangle.

Next my hand moves to her lower back and I pull her into me stimulating her pussy indiscriminately with my leg in the process.

Then my hand moves down her back into her pants and I play with her ass on the outside of her panties.

After a while doing that my hand goes into the panties and I play with her bare ass.

After enjoying that for a while I'll directly stimulate her pussy from behind. I'll start playing with it and fingering it from behind. This works best because it's unexpected by her, and a natural transition from where your hands already are.

If she resists I'll keep playing with her ass and then try again. If she resists 2 or 3 more times. I switch tactics and begin to dry hump her in missionary position. Then I'll pull my dick out and position it where her vaginal opening would be and I try to push my dick in through her cloths. And I continue dry humping her this way. For a while, continuing the kiss triangle.

Then I'll remove her pants. Dry hump her outside of her panties then take her panties off and put on a condom. Done.

If I get to finger her from behind I'll do that for a while and then undo her pants from the front with my other hand and finger her from the front.

After doing that for a while (btw when we get into my apartment I always put on a robe that has condoms in the pocket to make this last step smooth. You should always run to the bathroom and change cloths when you all first walk in)
I put on a condom. Done.

OK. the kino on the street is different. After the full frontal hug I'll break contact and talk with her a bit. Then I'll reach out and grab her hand in a smooth way while we're talking. Or I'll say "Let me see something. (grab her hand) I just wanted to hold your hand because I'm so romantic."

Then I'll hold her hand for 2 minutes strong. After 2 minutes of hand holding has passed I'll try to move her to an instant date. If I can't I'll go for a kiss then the number.

Say I can't get her on the instant date. After the 2 minutes of hand holding it's fine to go for a kiss without prepping her face with kino while on the street.

There are a ton of ways to do this. "The french goodbye." is a favorite of mine. You can find many examples here on this forum for k close transitions.

If I do get her on the instant date. I take her to a place where we can sit side by side.

At first I'll let are legs touch in brief instances and after she gets comfortable with that I'll keep our legs in contact.

After that I will emphasize points by grabbing her side, or placing my hand on her lower back. only for about 4-5 seconds. and not that much. 1 or 2 is really enough to move to the next level.

I'll touch a necklace she's wearing or brush something off her face.

Then I'll go for pinching her cheeks, or placing my hand behind her neck and moving in eye to eye to talk. At which point I'll try to extract her to a sex location, if that doesn't work go for the kiss, then the number.

If I have to take the number and set up another date. I'll start from a lower level of kino and build back up through the same process. If I managed to K close before the number I try to get her to come directly over to my place instead of meeting me out somewhere.

The steps at the sex location are all the same. Kiss leads to everything else.

_________________
I am a hunter of human excellence. I seek out those individuals who break the norms
and demonstrate to all of us what’s really possible. I learn what those few
extraordinary individuals do that’s different from everybody else, and then emulate
them.

Yeah, I know. Now you probably understand why skills chose to go with the gain experience route and why there are books dedicated to this stuff. Even your explanation, which has great detail, is about what you do and why you do it. There is no real explanation on why it works. You can probably gain that knowledge by reading, but experience is actually the better teacher.

I do applaud you for taking the time to write that out.

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I don't think sO. Maybe I'm using the wrong word

I skipped over explaining why each individual thing works. The post size would have doubled...

I did throw in a brief explanation as to why it works over all.

I said it gets the woman comfortable with you touching her.

For a little more detail. You go from step to step. She gets comfortable at step one, now you can go to step 2. She gets comfortable at step 2 now you can go to step 3. You get blocked trying to go to step 4 you need to stay at step 3 longer until she is comfortable enough for you to go to step 4.

It's all about comfort in touching. There are many steps between the kiss and actual sex.

I didn't count them, lets just say there are 7.

The stuff the original post is about give a methodology like this:

Go for the kiss, and if it's blocked jump to step 6 or 7. Then press in for sex, and don't let her leave until she gives in.

The girl isn't comfortable with this shit, and her compliance is forced. That's rape man...

Anyway, you're painting me as if I said don't gain experience and read kino books.

I called his explanation a cop-out (and it is) because all he said was "Don't worry about coming off like a rapist. You'll know when you're not being a rapist after you gain experience." That's...stupid.

Also, don't sit there and act like you've never read a book. I tire of people on this website who think reading is somehow a bad thing. "Too cool for school." comes to mind.

Read to expand your knowledge, practice the stuff you read in real life. Understand why something works then improve upon it, or just keep doing what works.

This thread is about spreading awareness to new guys to avoid this guy's company, not about teaching guys the proper methods of kino escalation.

I get what your trying to say. But, you're trying to refer to something that's in the PU community as common sense. It's common to us who live in 1% of the population, but it falls under the "Counter intuitive" category for everyone else.

Even then, dealing with resistance is being handled in a rape like manner by this guy and his company.

_________________
I am a hunter of human excellence. I seek out those individuals who break the norms
and demonstrate to all of us what’s really possible. I learn what those few
extraordinary individuals do that’s different from everybody else, and then emulate
them.

Not at all. That's only how you interpreted it. If I thought that you didn't have experience, I would have said that. My point is that for someone to fully understand what you are talking about, they would have to get either the experience firsthand or read it in a book.
If you read a few of my posts, I always acknowledge something that I've learned from books. Just the other day I wrote a post and credited the book Influence, by Robert Cialdini.

I didn't jump into this thread because I was challenging you. I jumped in because you made a statement, "Using the cop-out that you will understand when you gain experience. So what about when a guy without experience like ruhri is in the learning process, or someone with even less experience than him?" right after you said that you learned it properly and offered no explanation of what "properly" is. Isn't that equally as, in your word's "stupid", because all you are really saying is, "Escalate properly and you won't be accused of rape" without offering what properly is.

The thing is that you knew what the problem was in your OP and knew what the real fix was because you demonstrated that knowledge in your technique that you explained. Instead of offering a warning or solution in the OP, you asked how persistent is too persistent? I know you're smarter than that, so there's no reason to dumb yourself down and pretend that's a real question.

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Thanks for all the responses!

I love yah Jack. I was confused about the hostility, and ignorance I was perceiving. That should have told me my evaluation was off. Sorry about that.

Anyway, I'll admit that you saw through what I was doing. You understood that I knew the answer to my own question before I asked it.

I wanted to see what would come out of the community on the topic as well as spread awareness about this company.

_________________
I am a hunter of human excellence. I seek out those individuals who break the norms
and demonstrate to all of us what’s really possible. I learn what those few
extraordinary individuals do that’s different from everybody else, and then emulate
them.