A little background. Met Trish a couple weeks ago, I was out of it after a few drinks though and don't remember most of the night. Friend tells me she seemed really into me, we meet up again at another bar crawl and we talk a bit, then again the next weekend and I do some kino/flirting and we spend the entire night talking to each other. I ask her out a week or so later, we get together for drinks and after a few hours of chatting she stammers (really, really stammers) out that "she's planning on leaving the area soon so we can't be dating, and she didn't really realize it was a date although she "had an inkling" when I put my arm around her the other night, but I couldn't be interested right? Even though we have this amazing chemistry and you're a great guy and..."

I'm thrown completely off at this point... third or fourth girl in a row I've really been attracted too and who has been in the process or at risk of leaving town. I tell her this, and we talk about a few other ways in which she fits the "profile." (We expanded asian to include asian descent since she's Incan.)

Walking back to her car I told her that it didn't matter, we obviously do have this chemistry and we regret the things we don't do more than the things we do. She says she still can't date (note can't instead of doesn't want to?) because her life is kind of a mess right now. Then she tells me maybe we shouldn't talk anymore if that would be confusing because she doesn't want to send mixed signals.

On the way home she calls me to taunt me that she got home sooner, but I'm distracted because I made a wrong turn and was lost so we don't really talk. Then I text her

Me: "Haha... one of the other girls I dated used to text me when she got home faster... stop fitting all my profiles! "

Her: Too funny

Me: I try... and think about what I said... and don't worry about being a mess, as near as I can tell everyone is.

Her: That's not the only reason I called

Me: I know

Only problem is, I didn't know... I assumed/guessed that after what I'd just said she was indicating she had reconsidered and did want to keep moving forward... but I wanted to sound confident or even a little cocky.

So, that's just the history. I actually thought I was right, tried to talk her into coming out to see a band on Friday... she said maybe I could join her out after the band, but it was going to be too late... asked her out for tonight, to which she replied we'd see each other at a group gathering we had last night.

So last night, she shows up comes straight to me and we start talking and hanging out. I'm trying to keep laid back on the kino and flirting since I'm seeing another girl who is also there... anyway, after a while she leans in and gives me this little speech which basically amounted to it being silly for me to be interested in her and I couldn't be because she was leaving and her life is a mess. I just said I was confused, and then someone else started talking to her.

We ended up talking more off and on during the night. Essentially she kept backing off what I thought she meant, and I kept challenging her with what she'd said.

Things like "You said we had amazing chemistry." "Oh, I meant chemistry as in friends... chemistry isn't an attraction thing."
"I said you fit my profile and we should pursue things, then you said you called for another reason than just to taunt me." "So what? How does that mean I want to date you?"

At one point I told her flat out that if she really didn't have any attraction for me and wasn't interested, she would have said she isn't interested... not that she can't because her life is a mess.

The thing is, while we were "arguing" we were both laughing and smiling about it... basically felt like we were just teasing each other though at the heart of everything she was resisting moving forward and I was pushing forward.

At one point I did get kind of annoyed, and told her I was going to go home and started to walk away... she stopped me, but said I was "storming off." I just explained it was getting late and I had work the next day, but she ended up still talking and joking more so I ended up staying. (I wasn't even thinking of game, but guess I did a takeaway... )

When she was getting ready to leave I offered to walk her to her car, then she ended up walking way past her car to a pizza place and saying we should grab some food. So yeah, way to send the signal that you aren't interested in a guy by arranging to spend more time alone with him.

Finally walking her to her car, I mention us getting together tonight and she says she will if we go as friends, but not if I think it's going to be a date. I just tell her we should avoid labels for now and just get to know each other, then walk away and shout back what time I'll be there.

So now I don't know if I just came off opinionated and pushy, or if we were flirting in some weird way, or of she's just conflicted because her life actually is a mess, or if she's just messing with me or what.



The other really bad thing is that way back when we met and I was blacked out, I apparently complained about one of my friends who had backstabbed me and cost me a girl I was really into. This keeps coming up between us, and I end up getting emotional about it... which culminated in me storming off once because I got agitated and wanted to calm down, and later in me getting caught into that discussion again and one of my girlfriends pulling me off to the side to calm me down with me shedding a few tears. I don't know how much attention Trish was paying to that part, but couldn't possibly look good...

But after that, it was back to our bantering discussion of whether or not she was attracted to me.

So confused... and sorry this is so long.

She just texted to cancel. It's too "dreary out... another day?"

Taking that as a big IOD, right?

At this point, I'm feeling pretty done with it... annoyed I guess:

Me: hmm... maybe... how are you going to make it up to me?

(the weather cleared up)

Her: Actually not so dreary anymore. Come on, place nice! No more innuendo.

Me: If anything, as a guy, I play entirely too nice... so are you saying you want to go now?

Her: Hmm... don't be so sure about that. I'd normally not text this stuff but you might assign other significance to a call.

Me: The means of communnication doesn't change the meaning of what you say or do

Her: Sure it can

Me: Doesn't matter... I'm not going to keep arguing this with you in any medium... I had fun with it last night but now we're either getting to know each other or we aren't. I can be at the bar in 30

I'll edit in her answer... she's the slowest texter ever!

EDIT: Calls me to say she can't get ready in time because she just got home, but wants to get together a little later. Oh, and she's "Not making anything up to you, Mr. Innuendo!"

I think from now on, whenever a woman say's she's direct I'm going to just run. Or do all women just think they're direct but naturally play games anyway?

???

I'm reading this and I'm FUCKING frustrated for you.

Here's my thoughts...

-Why oh why do you KEEP engaging this girl on a logical level?

-Why the hell do you keep asking/forcing her to explain what the state of the relationship is between you two? I mean what are you expecting her to say? 'Yes I like you... I'm going to give you permission to kiss meeeeee?'

You already KNOW this is NOT how it works. She keeps telling/ hinting at you to stop doing this... And you just carry the fuck right on!

This girl was totally up and open to the idea of SOMETHING happening between you two, but instead of 'pushing her up against a wall and just kissing her' you're just boring her senseless with this game of 'Do you or do you not really like me bullshit because I'm Onoma and I'm too insecure to actually make a move and take a risk.'

This girl isn't playing a game. She simply wants you to man up. If she verbalises this to you it kinda defeats the point though doesn't it?? So instead, you try to call her out, and she gets all defensive... You get pissed off. Lather rinse repeat... Over and over. Do you see a pattern?

WHY? If you put your hand in the fire and you get burnt, do you keep on doing it? Of course not? So why do YOU keep putting your hand in the fire?

________________________________

Look I've read a few of your posts from previous threads... And the underlying comonality I see is major insecurity and self doubt... Maybe you need to step back and evaluate your entire life? What it is you want?

Here's a question.

You've broken your arm. Do you drive to:

A. The hospital
B. The vets
C. The library.

The answer is obvious right? You're driving to the hospital, vets and the library and you don't have a clue that you've EVEN broken your arm!

There's a lot going on here and you're trying to solve this with pick-up. This is ridiculous right?

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I didn't. We were out having fun, SHE decided to explain it wasn't a date. I didn't bring that up at all. Oh yeah, and I did kiss her that night. She didn't kiss back, just kind of froze up.

Then she's telling me to stop being flirty after I just make a joke. She's giving me no opportunity here. I didn't try to get her to explain the state of our relationship, I flat out told her NOT to think about the state of our relationship and just get to know each other and told her when to meet me. That's when she started flaking again, canceling, then texting me to change her mind, then telling me not to use any innuendo, then flirting and kino-ing with me the entire night, then forcing the friends label on me at the end of the night right before we were going to leave.

I lost it last night anyway, told her we couldn't be friends because I've been through this before and we'll just get hurt. I told her directly that I'd said to keep the labels out of it, and she knew how I felt when she agreed to meet me, and that it was unfair for her to then try and change the label so I was done. She spent two hours texting me after she got home, while I just kept repeating that.

I guess I could have "manned up and kissed her" again, but we tried that... remember?
"We have amazing chemistry"

"We can't be dating."

"I'll meet you and we get to know each other without labeling it"

"Stop using innuendo, and we're just friends"

No, no playing games at all.

I didn't need her to fucking say anything last night, I just needed her to NOT say "we're friends."
I'm not. That's why I told her we weren't being friends last night. Maybe that's too verbal compared to the already failed tactic of kissing her, but fuck it... I'm tired of it. So she spends a couple hours texting how I must not really care about her, and she was just looking out for my feelings because she didn't want us to get attached and then leave.

Again, I wasn't asking her to explain anything. All I wanted was for her to NOT label shit and let us see what happens, and give me the chance to make it happen.
Which she agreed to by getting together with me, then shut down randomly.
The only thing I'm insecure about is women, why wouldn't I try to solve that with PUA? PUA is all about getting guys who are insecure about women to have more confidence with them. That's what PUA is. There's even an entire forum here dedicated to inner game and confidence building. (Which I think I need to spend more time in...)

Edited the last post to try and sound a little less confrontational. Sorry if you already read it, but I woke up in a pretty shitty mood this morning because of this.

Onoma:

It's this simple...you continue to tell her you want to get to no her more...she says know yet stays. She is into you and you are not responding to her.

The way I see it, you have two options from here:

BEFORE we start with your options....stop playing games. Your texting back and forth isn't flirting anymore. Set a date, stick to it and meet her in person. If she doesn't show or cancels, its over. Immediately stop talking to her.

If she shows, make your god damn move. She knows you are interested, and she showed...you don't need anymore IOIs. I understand girls can be friends with guys, etc., but i'm sure she has plenty of friends right now and doesn't need another random guy in her life. YOU KISS HER. DO IT. no more excuses.

If you do kiss her, and she does not want you to continue, you simply tell her that being friends isn't going to work. You want to fuck. She should call you when she decides to fuck, and walk away. Yup...exactly like that...that's what you do.

------

IF she doesn't meet or you know you are going to wuss out and not make a move, freeze her out immediately. It's your choice to tell her why or not. I've seen it work both ways. You can say look, don't call or text me unless you want to fuck...OR just don't respond unless she is begging to meet up with you because she made a mistake. If she really wants to, she can find you out with friends...it wouldn't be that hard.

ALRIGHT...so bottom line is, while relationships are nice, guys want to fuck. While relationships are nice...girls want to fuck. If her reasons for not wanting to fuck is because she can't be in a relationship right now...why should that stop you from both enjoying something? No reason...but you need to show her that you can be that guy. If she doesn't want to, MOVVVVEEEEE ONNNN. Enough said.

NikoGR I agree with a lot of what you say, however this is way too risky to use on any girl. Most girls will see you as a pig thats only after one thing, she'l see you as the kind of guy that is of the 'pussy doesnt have a face' attitude. Not attractive at all.

Instead show genuine interest in HER and the fucking will follow naturally. In Onama's case if he had to say 'call me if you want to FUCK', man she'd probably slap him or never speak to him again. There are few girls that would response favorably to this, some would, but most wouldnt at this stage of the process.

Another thing, by saying 'call me when you want to fuck', you are verbalizing what you want from her, its not just distasteful, but you are also blatantly giving yourself away, there is no mystery to you! Any girls in the world KNOWS that if you say 'friend wont work for me' that you clearly want to fuck, no need to say it, seriously. In addition to that, how special is the girl going to feel when she knows that if she picks up the phone to speak to you, its just to FUCK, nothing else, but FUCKING. You decent girls will not pick up that phone, and its obvious why.

ah ok, the two threads are a bit confusing, don't know if I have the timeline right now.

I'm just gonna assume the last point where you are with the girl is she texted you, saying you don't care about her and defending herself saying how she doesn't want you getting hurt.

First off, this girl has some serious issues, this is more than just "ah wait ... I'm insecure". She actually leaned over when you were with friends and told you, it's silly that you're into her, and you shouldn't be?!

Since she's so persistent with the friend thing and your kiss already failed, which is bad, she MIGHT just be texting that to defend herself (saying I didn't do anything wrong, ans you're the jerk who messed up) - in that case I think it's hopeless.

She might be trying not to lose you. In that case either it's because she's really messed up and likes being with you (attention, has few ppl in her life, something she likes about you but asexual) but has already decided for sure that she doesn't find you attractive. In this case it's also hopeless. You said you debated whether she's attracted to you? sounds bad and like a turn off. Was she flirting with you, did she say things she liked about you? if she was just defensive saying you're good looking and being vague, I'd say she's not attracted.

Or she might just be really insecure and maybe she's really not ready for a relationship and maybe she's a woman who easily feels sexually pressured (has she only dated few men? does she only want sex in a relationship?). In this case you have to make her feel secure and shrug off her worries that you're expecting something.
Examples:
she says don't do those innuendos!
you say: what? oh my, the things you interpret into what I say ... Maybe I'm not Mr. Innuendo, you're Ms. Paranoid

she says:
I just want us to be friends
you say: and I just want to be with you this evening/tonight
(as Visionx says: don' be explizit about what you want)

when you make a little joke and she's like: oh, you're flirting
you STAY COOL and say: what's your problem. Why are you so scared of men/me/me liking you? / why do you always think I/men are flirting with you?
You can maybe see how she reacts and take this further to find out what's really her issue (but don't be sour/accusing her of teasing you and don't say how much you like her and that you don't want to get hurt (don't say WE, you can maybe say, you don't want to hurt/push HER, if she's pissed, but no more).
or just go back to the fun with:
Can't we just hang out and have fun? / Can't you just enjoy the moment? then do something fun/overly romantic to make her look silly about her worries.

First step could be texting her saying: hey, I think it's really silly we end up arguing and I'm sorry about that. So, anyways, this time I wanna make up for it, I'm taking you to ... at ...p.m.

I think you do have to apologize, since she's pissed, but if you tell her "no, no, i do care" that's lame

This thread is pretty much the timeline, though I didn't go into any real detail about last night I guess.
Basically she's mad that I stood up to her. She thinks it's unfair that I let other women be friends when I was interested in them, but not her. I explained that I've learned my lesson on that and it only leads to both parties getting hurt. Her last texts were: (There was actually a LOT before these, but it'd be like writing a book and it's all basically the same back and forth about her being upset and me knowing we'll get hurt.)

Her: Good night, Mike

Me: It won't change the fact that we'll get hurt. I'm sorry, I don't make the rule... I just learned it the hard way.

Me: Good night. I'm sorry it has to be this way... if I could not care we could be friends

Her: Whatever you say, but you're friends with Ashley and Emily

Her: Oh yeah, that's right, I'm the one you stood up to

Me: Emily hurt me even more than Hanh at one point, and Ashley never really got past the "she's cute" stage... and you pointed out there is still awkwardness between us.

(She knows how much Hanh hurt me, to the point where bringing it up still gets me feeling hurt and agitated... )
It's more that we debated whether she was giving me signals of being attracted to me. Like saying we had chemistry, or deciding as I'm walking her to her car that we should get pizza and sit there alone until they close and kick us out. I actually challenged her on several occassions to just tell me she wasn't attracted to me, and she wouldn't. She actually just said "if it were Keanu Reeves I couldn't date him right now, I can't date anyone right now."

She doesn't want me to think she isn't interested. Perhaps because she is, or perhaps she enjoys the attention she gets from me thinking she is...



Like I said, that debate really felt more like teasing and flirting than anything else. The same vibe as when I bust on her for being late (which she is ALWAYS late.)
I like that... wish I'd thought of it...
I don't know, I think next time I hear just friends I'm just going to walk away on the spot. Tired of it. Tired of trying to save from that point... I shouldn't need to. Even Trish said she didn't understand why I'd care about her when there were all these other beautiful girls around who would love me.

No, I have to walk away. Let her be pissed, I was as clear as I could possibly be about my intentions and she walked into it and tried to force something else.

ok, I agree you should just walk away from this girl.
It shouldn't have got to the point, where you're aguing about why you're just friends with other girls, you're telling her (more than once?!) how bad you were hurt and how you don't want to get hurt again (not good, if her issue is not wanting anything serious right now!) and she's actually telling you you're wasting your time and should date other women.

Sounds pretty messed up, sorry!

if she DOES find you attractive and really doesn't even want to date Keanu Reeves she might come back at you some time, but don't bother about that now!

I'd say only keep in touch via Facebook and not more, don't be the depressed guy hurt by girls that always put him in the friend zone!

LOL, this is why you don't take advice of women. Point of fact, all this 'she might be this or might be that' would NOT matter if an alpha male came along and forced his dominant frame onto her. She'd be kissing him and that would be it. PERIOD.

These are the excuses that run through a girl's mind AFTER a guy has been UNSUCESSFUL at seducing her.


...And if you tried to kiss her with as much conviction and confidence as you show by the way you write I can understand WHY she didn't kiss you back.

...Because all this PUA crap is just that. Crap. The guys that really succeed, I mean really succeed, are the ones that have great inner game. And I'm not just throwing around that term because it's cool at the moment. I mean it.

A good sex life, confidence and all the rest of that jazz comes as a by product of being an attractive MAN. Having great inner game. I can tell by the way you write you have no confidence. That's not just with women but in general. You may turn around and say to me I'm wrong. But this is just your own self delusion so you can keep focusing on the problem that is tearing you up OVER and OVER.

Let me ask you a question.

Has every single woman you've ever been with treated you the same? I'm willing to bet the answer to this is 'yes.'

So by that deduction, would you say EVERY single woman in the ENTIRE world has been playing you for fun, and enjoys putting you in the friend zone, because they get their kicks from seeing a nice guy like you squirm?

Or is it quite possible that EVERY single woman you were dating was ENTIRELY open to the idea of FUCKING you and being a part of your life, until you revealed your true colours and showed them how emotionally unstable you ACTUALLY ARE.

Cue the violins. Look dude, trust me, I'm probably and month or so ahead of you. I have exactly the same issues as you. So don't turn around and say no-one knows what it is like to be you and the world is against you cos that's just BULLSHIT.

I think you may be LOVE-SHY as well, which is actually an illness although it isn't well known.

Either way, you need a focus. At the moment, all I see is a yo-yo, going up and down, up and down. With no real focus or result.

Your focus should be to stop all this shit, and focus on becoming a sexy, non-needy mother fucker. A MAN. OK if you getting some sex that would probably help, but you have to look past that and focus on the core.

I would seriously recommend reading Gunwitch method 2 and putthing that shit into action. Hope you find your direction.

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*Justice renders the WEAK his due*
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No. Just the ones I've actually liked and been interested in. And "I'm not going to be in the area in a month" is a pretty powerful argument against starting a relationship. Could I fuck these girls if that's all I were trying for? Maybe. But that's not what I'm trying for, nor is it something I can be comfortable with right now. Gunwitch is a lost cause for me until I figure out my sexual issues.

Which is exactly the point. Would you try hooking up with girls you are unattracted to? NO. Period. Therefore, this has happened to EVERY girl you have interacted with.

Take some time to think about this and not just roll out another one of your excuses.
Yes but you have to understand, if you had casual sexual relationships it would actually help you grow to foster deeper and meaningful relationships later on.

This is why your neediness is crippling when you meet someone you actually like.

Whatever way you look at it. You've got to detach yourself from the outcome. If you don't you're fucked.

Have you even googled gunwitch method 2. That's a 2 there, not 1. It's about building the core. I know you have sexual issues. But without the core in place you're just going to carry on.

Do me a favour, and take some time out to think, I mean really think about the direction you're going in. Not just some knee jerk reaction.

_________________
*Justice renders the WEAK his due*
My Journal
here-vp445642.html#445642

There are girls I'm on the fence about. Nearly had sex with one of them the other night, but couldn't manage. For some reason I seem to meet these girls in pairs, the one who's doomed but I am really interested in followed by the one who is really interested in me but I don't click with.

But no, not every girl I interact with has treated me this way... just the ones who are in the process of leaving the area when I meet them.
I'm debating just taking the next couple weeks off from having any kind of social life, and using it to get into an exercise routine, meditate and work on inner game, and get caught up on job stuff. Not to mention just get myself a bit centered again.