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Appeasement Is Futile
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Author:  movieman08 [ Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Appeasement Is Futile
On pages 30-31 of the Mystery Method, Mystery says, "Women will keep pushing and testing until they find all your boundaries. When a woman pushes and feels that resistance, it allows her to feel secure with you. This is what she's looking for. But if she doesn't feel that resistance, then she will keep pushing until she walks all over you and then seeks challenge elsewhere. Of course a woman will be unable to respect a man if she can walk all over him. It'll be mildly disappointing to her, but she'll also feel reassured about her feminine power - which feels good - and she may even reward his submission with positive reinforcement. A girl may enjoy the ego boost when men catcall at her - but she will rarely, if ever, have sex with those men."

What boundaries of yours is a woman looking to find? You would think when she feels resistance, she wouldn't feel at all secure because she hasn't been able to dig beneath the surface to get to know you fully. If a woman doesn't respect a man, then why would she reward him with positive reinforcement? In what setting would a man catcall at a girl? How would a girl get an ego boost from men catcalling at her? (Catcalling is meant to express disapproval.)
Author:  Wagon [ Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
You're wrong that resistance would make her feel less secure, I believe you might be confusing what 'resistance' is. A woman is getting to know the real you when you communicate your boundaries to her, she isn't learning anything from a man that appeases her, except that he's probably a pussy.

Catcalling doesn't express disapproval, I think you're confusing it with something else. A Catcall is like whistling when a cutie walks by, or shouting 'Woooo hey baby!' or whatever. It's obvious why that would be an ego boost, it's less obvious but also very telling why it wouldn't spark attraction in a woman, hint: how much confidence does it take to whistle at a girl across the street when you're surrounded by your friends?

Why would a woman provide positive reinforcement to a man that she doesn't respect but also makes her feel powerful and desired? I think you can answer that one for yourself.
Author:  movieman08 [ Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:25 am ]
Post subject: 
What kinds of boundaries are we talking about?
I see where you're coming from with the positive reinforcement, but at the same time, what of kind of positive reinforcement could a woman possibly provide to someone she's just walked all over?
Author:  Wagon [ Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:16 am ]
Post subject: 
She can provide a man with the vague promise of more, making him into an orbiter. While this is basically worthless, many men line up to partake, sometimes just proximity to someone one desires is enough to keep him picking her up from work, taking her drunk calls late at night, etc. Some people call this 'leading him on', but most weak men are willing participants in these arrangements, often believing that eventually the woman he is disingenuously acting platonic with will suddenly fall madly in love him and fuck his brains out. It's not always this malicious though, sometimes a woman simply doesn't realize the guy that follows her around like a puppy dog is attracted to her; and who can blame her? He has shown no intent, probably because of fear.

Let me ask you, what boundaries do you have with your friends or colleagues? That is, the people you aren't attracted to. If your buddy says he likes a sports team you despise, would you ever not voice your opinion or worse yet pretend to be a fan to avoid potentially breaking rapport with him? What about music, or food? To what degree are you willing to compromise your principles, opinions, and desires, to try to control the way another person feels about you?

What if a someone repeatedly inconvenienced you, or used you, would you stand up for yourself? Would you be willing to walk away from that someone and move on with your life? What if she had really nice tits?

This is why traditional 'nice guys' are really assholes. They're even worse than the 'assholes' they look down upon, the ones that fuck the girl their pining for and then send her home in a cab because they want to sleep comfortably in their own beds. At least the latter is honest about what he wants, rather than acting like something else to try and achieve some other aim.
Author:  movieman08 [ Fri Sep 17, 2010 3:08 am ]
Post subject: 
When you described an orbiter, I was confused and things didn't get any clearer when Mystery talked about it in The Mystery Method. The context for him was why a woman might say she has a boyfriend. "She doesn't have a boyfriend and she is attracted to you; she just doesn't want to look like a loser who can't get a man. Most hot women have orbiters anyway: nice guys who pose as their friends but secretly want to sleep with them. Since the word 'boyfriend' can have so many different meanings, she is thinking of one of her orbiters as a 'place keeper.'"

Why would she look like a loser who can't get a man in this situation? If she is attracted to the male, then why not give in to the attraction? If an orbiter wanted to sleep with the hot woman, I don't see why he couldn't just let that be known. There's very little chance it would happen if he chose not to speak up. How is it that the word boyfriend can have so many different meanings? What is meant by 'place keeper?' Going back to what you said, if a male is picking a woman up at work continually (this comes off as lazy on her part) that would seem like it would indicate romantic interest on his part. You'd think that instead of taking the drunk calls from her, the male would want to actually be in the drunk situations with her.

In regards to boundaries, I'd definitely voice my opinion with the sports team example. The same would go with music and food. I don't think I'd be willing to compromise my principles, opinions, and desires, to try to control the way another person feels about me, at least not when it comes to friends or colleagues. I might be willing to compromise somewhat with a girl I'm interested in. Here's an example: I thought the highly acclaimed movie "Juno" was just ok, but if a girl I was interested in were to say that she loved it, I could see myself saying that I thought it was good - boosting my opinion of the movie a little. If someone repeatedly inconvenienced me, or used me, then I'd stand up for myself. As for walking away from that someone and moving on with my life, I think it would be easier to do if it was a girl I liked (the severity of the inconveniencing would factor in) as opposed to a friend because I'd see losing a friend as lowering my social circle. Thus, I don't think I'd have too much of a problem doing it if it were a girl (the nice tits would probably make the decision harder), but with a friend, it would be rather difficult. One last note on boundaries: I always thought that they had to do with your limits and not your principles, opinions, and desires. For example, if a friend (even in a joking manner), were to slap me on the ass, I would see that as crossing my boundaries. If I were meeting a girl at a bar for the first time and she were to ask about my dating and/or sexual history, I think I'd say that I'd rather not get into that at this point and establish my boundaries. However, I might come to regret that if she wanted to start making out or perhaps go further. The reason being that I've only french-kissed a girl once or twice in my life (it was brief) and I've never had sex. Even though I know you're supposed to establish boundaries in the first meeting you have with a girl you're romantically interested in, I'm not really sure what mine would be.
Author:  Wagon [ Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Why would she look like a loser who can't get a man in this situation?
This is not about orbiters, telling a guy she has a boyfriend when she doesn't have one is usually a shit test, it's her attempt to validate the confidence the guy is presenting. If he get's shaky and backs off, she has determined he's not as confident as he fronts. Basically, when you approach a women confidently and show intent, you are really giving her the power to reject you, you are communicating that you aren't afraid because you're happy and secure in your own life (some guys would say you're happy and secure because you have other sexual options, but I personally don't consider women the ultimate or only source of a happy satisfied life).
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If she is attracted to the male, then why not give in to the attraction?
Fear of appearing like a slut for one. Though most women aren't attracted to their orbiters enough to invest, they just use them to feel validated and secure. It also pumps their 'value' by demonstrating they are desired.
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If an orbiter wanted to sleep with the hot woman, I don't see why he couldn't just let that be known.
You're obviously not stupid, think about this one. He's afraid of rejection. Honestly, if you can't see this I'm a bit surprised to see you posting here. If showing intent without fear is your natural approach, you probably already have success with women. When was the last time you walked up to a hot woman and made it clear you wanted to fuck her?
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There's very little chance it would happen if he chose not to speak up.
Yep. Doesn't mean some men don't let fear get int he way of going after what they want. Hence they end up in a situation of their own making, that makes them miserable.
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How is it that the word boyfriend can have so many different meanings? What is meant by 'place keeper?'
This isn't mathematics, so don't expect precision in terminology. 'Boyfriend' means different things to different people, ditto for 'place keeper', though I would take the latter to mean someone that one is not seriously interested in for whatever reason, but is otherwise a semi-suitable mate. No one likes to be alone, women want to feel like they have options too. That's why they put men into orbit, the men are willing to accept proximity without sexual investment because they are pussies, and the woman is willing to accept proximity without investment because she get's everything she wants without giving anything up.
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Going back to what you said, if a male is picking a woman up at work continually (this comes off as lazy on her part) that would seem like it would indicate romantic interest on his part. You'd think that instead of taking the drunk calls from her, the male would want to actually be in the drunk situations with her.
It doesn't necessarily indicate romantic interest on his part, it might, it might not. That is the moral justification women use when they defend using a guy who is obviously trying to worm his way into their panties, or the genuine justification that they never new for sure and didn't want to assume. Worse yet, if a woman confronted an orbiter about something like this, in my experience, he would probably deny interest because as soon as he shows intent there is the possibility that she rejects him, which is terrifying to him so he avoids it at all costs. It's sort of like never applying for a job so you can't get turned down, and instead you just hang out at the place of business all the time, even doing some odd jobs for free. Obviously the analogy isn't perfect, but it illustrates just how fucking backwards it is with some guys.
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In regards to boundaries, I'd definitely voice my opinion with the sports team example. The same would go with music and food. I don't think I'd be willing to compromise my principles, opinions, and desires, to try to control the way another person feels about me, at least not when it comes to friends or colleagues.
Bingo, because you aren't afraid of them breaking rapport with you. Maybe buddy get's freaked out you don't like his team and tells you that he can't befriend anyone who isn't a fan. You, being confident and secure in your own life, accept this and move on, mildly disappointed at worst and happy you found out the guy was such a wackjob at best.
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I might be willing to compromise somewhat with a girl I'm interested in. Here's an example: I thought the highly acclaimed movie "Juno" was just ok, but if a girl I was interested in were to say that she loved it, I could see myself saying that I thought it was good - boosting my opinion of the movie a little.
Why? To try and smooth things over with her? Say you thought it was terrible, so the example isn't mealy mouthed since 'just ok' and 'good' are basically the same thing anyway. If your opinion of a movie is such a big deal to her then she has issues, but the telling part here is that you aren't confident enough that she will like you regardless of such a trivial thing, or in a non-outcome dependent sense, you are worried about her not liking you so you try to avoid it by pretending to be different than you actually are. Strangely enough, this kind of manipulative duplicity is a turn-off.
Quote:
If someone repeatedly inconvenienced me, or used me, then I'd stand up for myself. As for walking away from that someone and moving on with my life, I think it would be easier to do if it was a girl I liked (the severity of the inconveniencing would factor in) as opposed to a friend because I'd see losing a friend as lowering my social circle.
I have a friend that occasionally gets drunk and turns into a bit of an opinionated asshole, I accept this flaw of his even though it inconveniences me the same way whatever I do that pisses him off from time to time get's looked over in consideration for the greater value we both derive from our friendship. He knows, and I know, that if one of us pushed the issue to far, say he got drunk every single day and was always an opinionated asshole, I wouldn't chill with him anymore. We have a relationship of mutual respect, predicated on maturity and tolerance with the knowledge that we both have a break point.

We both have boundaries, and we both respect them to enjoy the positive consequences of our friendship. When you are receiving little or no positive consequences, but are incurring the vast majority of the 'costs', you are not in a relationship of mutual respect, you are being used. On paper it's simple, you just break the connection to the person that is using you, but some guys are afraid of being alone, afraid of not getting laid, afraid of feeling inadequate, to the point that what they tolerate what they shouldn't and get walked on by women.

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Thus, I don't think I'd have too much of a problem doing it if it were a girl (the nice tits would probably make the decision harder)
Again, I don't really buy this. The last part is particularly telling, which is why I mentioned that she would have a great rack for the sake of the example. God damn I do love nice breasts.
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But with a friend, it would be rather difficult.
Nothing wrong with this, since I'm assuming that your friendship benefits you to the point that decision would be difficult. If your friend killed your mom, it wouldn't matter how tight you two were. Similarly, if a girl puts you to bed every night with a back massage and a blow job, you might pick her up from work every day. You join up for mutual benefit, and enjoy the surplus.
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One last note on boundaries: I always thought that they had to do with your limits and not your principles, opinions, and desires. For example, if a friend (even in a joking manner), were to slap me on the ass, I would see that as crossing my boundaries. If I were meeting a girl at a bar for the first time and she were to ask about my dating and/or sexual history, I think I'd say that I'd rather not get into that at this point and establish my boundaries.
Semantics, it's a principle that slapping your ass is inappropriate. It's a principle that asking about sexual history early on is inappropriate. Don't confused enforcing a boundary with it's origin, that is, your opinions, desires, and principles.
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However, I might come to regret that if she wanted to start making out or perhaps go further. The reason being that I've only french-kissed a girl once or twice in my life (it was brief) and I've never had sex. Even though I know you're supposed to establish boundaries in the first meeting you have with a girl you're romantically interested in, I'm not really sure what mine would be.
Now we're getting somewhere, though I wouldn't worry about consciously establishing boundaries, if you have them and are not outcome dependent, you will take care of yourself, which is very attractive. You don't need to force establishing them, if someone approaches a boundary or crosses it, react accordingly, by communicating it to her, or by simply moving on and not worrying about her anymore.

Discovering your principles, opinions, and desires is called living. Don't worry about not knowing everything right away, use this question as the impetus to seek out new experiences and to learn from them what you can. In my opinion ;), the endpoint of manhood is the culmination of this discovery process, and being a man is about confidently seeking out the answers to these questions, while enjoying your life the fullest.
Author:  movieman08 [ Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:01 am ]
Post subject: 
According to Mystery, "Nine times out of ten, when a woman says, 'I have a boyfriend,' what this ultimately translates to is, 'You just telegraphed too much interest.'" Thus, what can be taken from her saying that (in the vast majority of instances) is that you've blown it. Yet, her telling you that she has a boyfriend (she doesn't) when she is attracted to you seems counter-intuitive. In this instance, it would appear that you haven't blown it. I don't see how not bringing an imaginary boyfriend into play would have her be perceived as a slut.

Getting back to my situation and lack of experience, I was wondering what is the difference between nonsexual intimate kissing and French-kissing? Mystery says, "In fact, if you wait too long to kiss her, she will at some point become uninterested and you will lose the opportunity to kiss her in the future." This is something I'd want to avoid, but would also want to steer clear of messing up. What is the difference between French-kissing and foreplay? Mystery says, "To know whether you are nearing the point of no return, ask yourself: 'Is this foreplay?' If the answer is yes, stop!'" If, though, you've built enough comfort why stop?

I'll be posting more topics as I progress further into the book. (I'm a little over 40% done.) The next topic, however, will actually be only several pages after the one I brought up in this thread. I plan on going into the field sometime this week, which means I'll have to have finished it by then.
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