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Is pickup manipulative ?
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Author:  DonPua [ Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:48 am ]
Post subject:  Is pickup manipulative ?
In one of the threads I read that a girl called some guy that was running game on her manipulative. Frankly, comments as those coming from women, really piss me off. I think that most men by nature are not manipulative at all. Most of the men I know and have ever known were never manipulative when it came to picking up girls. They were mostly quit naive in their interactions with women. Those few men that I knew that were manipulative, however, went away with all the women.

The most manipulative creature on earth is a woman. Why ? Who is the one wearing makeup in order to hide their defects ? Who is the one wearing clothes in such a way that misperfections on the body are hidden ? How many guys have experienced that their ex-girlfriends tried to make them jealous in order to punish him for a dispute they once had ? Who is the one manipulating AFC's in order to get free drinks ? Who is the one manipulating men by giving some minor IOI's to them in order to get validation from men and walk away once they got the validation they wanted ? Who is the one that uses sex as a tool in order to manipulate a guy to do something for her ? I better stop here because the list is very large.

So next time a woman calls a man with pickup skills manipulative she'd better look at herself first before judging other people.
Author:  Punchl!ne [ Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:00 am ]
Post subject: 
Yes and no.

In a way it is manipulative, BUT manipulation doesn't have to be a bad thing.

It's not about pointing fingers; it's about showing the girl/woman/whatever that being with you is time well-spent.
Author:  Z-Wrex [ Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:31 am ]
Post subject: 
Right, it's not a battle of good vs evil.

There's a fine line between manipulation and persuasion. You and your buddy are debating what bar to go to tonight. You each list pros and cons, maybe cite a bad thing that happened the last time you were at bar X. If you two have different opinions on where to go, you're trying to convince him to go to the bar you want to go to. It's not manipulating to say that you think the bartenders there are rude, at least not in a negative sense. You're just presenting an argument.

To me, that's what pua is, presentation of an argument. In this case, it's presenting an argument for a woman to give you her phone number, kiss you, etc.
Author:  Ryan Black SashaPUA [ Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:02 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Right, it's not a battle of good vs evil.

There's a fine line between manipulation and persuasion. You and your buddy are debating what bar to go to tonight. You each list pros and cons, maybe cite a bad thing that happened the last time you were at bar X. If you two have different opinions on where to go, you're trying to convince him to go to the bar you want to go to. It's not manipulating to say that you think the bartenders there are rude, at least not in a negative sense. You're just presenting an argument.

To me, that's what pua is, presentation of an argument. In this case, it's presenting an argument for a woman to give you her phone number, kiss you, etc.
Along the right lines, but not quite, in my view.

The difference between presenting a case to persuade someone, and manipulating them, comes down to emotion.

When you have a debate and present an argument, you list relevant facts and use logic to persuade the other side. Nobody can get angry and call you manipulative if you win at this - the facts and the logic speak for themselves and can be checked for validity.

What people fear and get angry about, is when techniques are used to spark certain kinds of emotions in them, such that they are lead to do something that they may not normally do if they were just presented with the list of facts and a logical argument to support the case that they should do it. People feel threatened if they know that you're manipulating them EMOTIONALLY, because they know full well that they are less in control of their emotional state than their logical mind.

There is also a gender difference in this area. Women are, on average, more attuned to the emotional state of themselves and others. Women talk more, and from a younger age, about what they're feeling, what their friends are feeling, and how some event made them feel. Men, on the other hand, tend to talk about what they think or believe, rather than how they feel. They tend to emphasise more logical, rational thinking. This helps explain why there are more women in fields such as psychology, and more men in fields like physics.

You can't really blame a woman for being manipulative when she tries to make you jealous or something, because that's her natural reaction - the field of emotions is her strong suit. The fact is, you're on her turf when it comes to seduction and attraction because those things are played in the field of emotion, not rational logic.

This is why it's so important to have abundance and have lots of female friends. You will start being able to think like them, and then you can use PU techniques to their fullest, without them ever accusing you of being manipulative.
Author:  BradW [ Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:12 pm ]
Post subject: 
The wasy isee it is that it's only manipulative if you go out and use a whole stack of routines and lies to get women to sleep with you. If you head out and tell a women how you really feel about her, and still want to sleep with her, then thats not manipulative.

How I see things is going to be different from how everyone else views it but I hate it when people start using routines and canned stuff. That is why the community has such a bad rep and why people are ashamed to let their family and friends know that they are actually improving ALL aspects of their lives.
Author:  NeVasPlus [ Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
In this regard every interaction is manipulative, so get those destructive thoughts out of your head. for example you probalby wouldn't say that a good speaker or a good writer is manipulative - they just do what works best. a good pick-up artist does the same - he used something that works to reach his goal.
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