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I hate my language (Dutch)
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Author:  Cointoss [ Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  I hate my language (Dutch)
Hi,

This is just a quick rant about on my native language and I'd also like to ask if anyone here can think of a way to deal with it (and please don't give me obvious suggestions like "just be so alpha you don't care what language you speak" because honestly some languages just don't fit certain personalities nor "just move to a country where they speak your preferred language(s)" because that is what I am working on already but is not really a near-term solution).

Basically my language makes me less comfortable in general but especially around women. I never know how (I do know what) to say anything and thus either I am pretty quiet or it comes out unseductively. I have problems being C&F in Dutch (basically I come across as being mean-spirited and annoying) whereas this problem is much less prevalent in English. I just can't tease without being a d*ck in Dutch (I wonder if anyone can or if it just doesn't suit me?) I can pass for a native speaker in the US for at least one or two conversations (and then cultural diffrerences might give it away) and am working on being able to do so in the UK as well. I also speak reasonable French , well enough to have a decent conversation and certainly well enough to say some silly tongue-in-cheek romantic shit (sans des fautes graves bien sur) to which my inner game is more than up to and I am working on becoming fully fluent because French is a language I actually like (as opposed to English towards which I don't like nor dislike explicitly).

So Dutch to me is unplayful, serious, rational, boring, coarse, makes me feel unfriendly, gives me the impression others are unfriendly and above all is just completely loveless (to me). So what do I do? Should I just pretend I'm American? Or should I just flat-out tell people I don't like speaking Dutch and would prefer English or French? At least this would force my frame on others which is never really bad if they go with it? Of course it is kind of weird and you can't do it with Dutch-speaking groups obviously but in individual conversations maybe?

To be sure, I can obviously carry a normal conversation in my mothertongue and I am also able to apply the language with the kind of versatility you'd expect from a native speaker (and then some), I just really find it a tasteless language except for when you want to express yourself in a barren, plain way.
Author:  ASX [ Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
I disagree. I have no trouble expressing myself perfectly in Dutch, nor any problems whatsoever as to being C/F.

I guess it's just a matter of practice. Nowadays a lot of people spend time on the internet, conversing in a language other than their own, watching English movies, etc. This all causes one to become less profound in their primary language, but does give you an overall good coverage of a spectrum of languages.

This doesn't mean that it's impossible to become a great speaker in one language though. Some people just tend to forget that the difference between languages is far greater than just one-on-one translation. It's about the feel of the words spoken as well. Once you develop a keen sense of how a language, and its words, are fundamentally constructed, only then can one actually become more than fluent in a language.

Even though you were probably raised in Dutch, it's quite possible you, along with tons of others, have a somewhat diminished 'feel' with the language, resulting in more difficulties when trying to be witty of cocky. This is because the media we consume contain a lot more emotionally charged language than in our real lives, causing us to become orphans of our own language.

The only advice I can give is practice. I was never good at 'feeling' Dutch either, but by practicing my ass off at jobs relying heavily on verbal skills, I quickly saw improvement in my talk and game (although back then I wouldn't call it game). Read some Dutch(!) literature, get out there more often and seize every opportunity to hone your skills. Trust me that in a few months you'll go from loathing to loving Dutch. It's not the language, it's you. No offence.
Author:  Cointoss [ Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:12 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Read some Dutch(!) literature, get out there more often and seize every opportunity to hone your skills. Trust me that in a few months you'll go from loathing to loving Dutch. It's not the language, it's you. No offence.
I wouldn't go around blaming a language in itself, however I'm not convinced the situation isn't that the language is basically not right for me. I quite simply dislike hearing it and speaking it and similarly I don't like very much the sound of for example Danish which is very similar to Dutch, like the Scandinavian languages in general (even though I don't understand a word of it). Even German to me seems like a much more warm, emotional and friendly language in which I can express myself in a reasonably warm and friendly way even though I don't speak it very well (to be clear German isn't super similar to Dutch except where it concerns some grammatical details and etymology).

I think you're right regarding the diminished feel with the language due to media exposure. However you can't tell me it is lack of exposure that I actually feel more homely speaking (albeit somewhat broken) German with actual Germans than when speaking Dutch with countrymen.
Author:  ASX [ Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:01 pm ]
Post subject: 
That's strange. I was raised near the border, can convince most non-Germans I'm a native speaker, yet I find it one of the least appealing languages in the world.

Anyways, I agree with you there's fundamental differences between languages. I mean, there's a reason French is the language of love right? So there might be languages in which it would be impossible to express advanced wit or cockyness. Not Dutch though. Dutch is one of the most cynical and harsh languages I know, which is great for teasing and messing around. As long as you accompany your talk with the right body language and expression (hence, feel) you'll do just fine. There's a reason why we were one of the first modern countries to start with cabaret. There's a lot of hidden subtlety in our language, I guess some just have to find it though.
Author:  Cointoss [ Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Anyways, I agree with you there's fundamental differences between languages. I mean, there's a reason French is the language of love right? So there might be languages in which it would be impossible to express advanced wit or cockyness. Not Dutch though. Dutch is one of the most cynical and harsh languages I know, which is great for teasing and messing around. As long as you accompany your talk with the right body language and expression (hence, feel) you'll do just fine.
You're exactly right. The thing is, I naturally am somewhat cynical and brisk so it's not exactly complementary to who I am. The problem is essentially that being a bit more extravert and outgoing/flirty (however you want to call it) seems more difficult for me to do when I'm exposed to Dutch. I can do it, but only for very short periods of time whereas it comes more naturally when interacting in different languages.

I think it is really quite strange as well myself because I think patriotism is quite important but I just can't find much to like about my country & language. Like I said, I am working on being able to emigrate asap but as that isn't situationally possible at this time so I am figuring out what could be a placeholder solution. I don't think "more exposure" really is what it is about. I am already more than fluent in Dutch, it's an emotional issue not a language familiarity issue. My body language (including expressions) and tonation is also different when I speak English (and starting to notice some fluency in French recently). I guess I could try to channel my emotions differently so that there's no difference like that but I'm afraid some things may have been hardwired.

Edit: It might be interesting to note that I've never really appreciated much language-based art in Dutch, whether it has been (pop) music, movies or literature. I do like the old masters for example though. I appreciate these arts more in the other major western languages (English, French, German).
Author:  P-Style [ Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
C/F in Dutch is exact the same as in other languages. I really do not understand your problem.
Author:  Amadieus [ Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
C/F can be done in every language yes but sometimes it can be hard to translate english PUA stuff to Dutch.
Author:  Ezo [ Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
I can relate to your problem... But I disagree.

English has a great potential for expressing oneself and yes culture and mindset somehow gets intertwined with language. Some languages are just made for certain ways of speaking.

However, considering the amount of subcultures in every country, it is not impossible to circumvent this. If you really wanna run game in english, run it in english. If you really wanna work on your inner game, try your mothertounge... Yes, read that again, it will make sense if you think about it.
Author:  Lodewijkp [ Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
of you translate english to dutch you are basically tunrning around the whole sequence of the sentence. dutch grammer is terrible but it is a very good language to camouflage your sexual intent when at the same time talking about sexual things.

i sometimes catch myself talking english to people lol... Actually talking some english is great because it's different... most guys just communicate in one language.

go around and talk english .. you will be amazed how easy you will open sets just because they think you're foreign.
Author:  Cointoss [ Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
of you translate english to dutch you are basically tunrning around the whole sequence of the sentence. dutch grammer is terrible but it is a very good language to camouflage your sexual intent when at the same time talking about sexual things.

i sometimes catch myself talking english to people lol... Actually talking some english is great because it's different... most guys just communicate in one language.

go around and talk english .. you will be amazed how easy you will open sets just because they think you're foreign.
Yeah good one on the foreign stuff, have you tried it? I live in Amsterdam myself so it's not strange to be foreign obviously. Do you have an example of how Dutch can camouflage? Not looking to build a collection of lines because I generally just wing it but an example would help.

And if you don't understand my problem... I am exagerating a little bit. It's not as if Dutch or English makes all the difference in the world (i.e. I don't think that if I can close in English I can't in Dutch or vice versa), I just wanted some feedback on my view on the language which I got so thx all.

And @Amadieus, again, I know pretty much anything COULD be done in any language. I did preface it with that this is a rant and rants are per definition pretty pointless. It's an inner game thing that I don't feel terribly smooth & confident in Dutch and it's quite likely because of the experiences I had and didn't have in each language area , which is a nice realisation which should help fixing the prob 8)
Author:  skills360 [ Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I hate my language (Dutch)
Quote:
Hi,

This is just a quick rant about on my native language and I'd also like to ask if anyone here can think of a way to deal with it (and please don't give me obvious suggestions like "just be so alpha you don't care what language you speak" because honestly some languages just don't fit certain personalities nor "just move to a country where they speak your preferred language(s)" because that is what I am working on already but is not really a near-term solution).

Basically my language makes me less comfortable in general but especially around women. I never know how (I do know what) to say anything and thus either I am pretty quiet or it comes out unseductively. I have problems being C&F in Dutch (basically I come across as being mean-spirited and annoying) whereas this problem is much less prevalent in English. I just can't tease without being a d*ck in Dutch (I wonder if anyone can or if it just doesn't suit me?) I can pass for a native speaker in the US for at least one or two conversations (and then cultural diffrerences might give it away) and am working on being able to do so in the UK as well. I also speak reasonable French , well enough to have a decent conversation and certainly well enough to say some silly tongue-in-cheek romantic shit (sans des fautes graves bien sur) to which my inner game is more than up to and I am working on becoming fully fluent because French is a language I actually like (as opposed to English towards which I don't like nor dislike explicitly).

So Dutch to me is unplayful, serious, rational, boring, coarse, makes me feel unfriendly, gives me the impression others are unfriendly and above all is just completely loveless (to me). So what do I do? Should I just pretend I'm American? Or should I just flat-out tell people I don't like speaking Dutch and would prefer English or French? At least this would force my frame on others which is never really bad if they go with it? Of course it is kind of weird and you can't do it with Dutch-speaking groups obviously but in individual conversations maybe?

To be sure, I can obviously carry a normal conversation in my mothertongue and I am also able to apply the language with the kind of versatility you'd expect from a native speaker (and then some), I just really find it a tasteless language except for when you want to express yourself in a barren, plain way.


This is what i called an excuse, as you can see there is another dutch guy in the forum that does not have the same problem that you have in your HEAD, if you believe it then that will be your outcome, this is a false/bs believe that you have in your head... Get rid of that limiting believe...
Author:  P-Style [ Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:27 am ]
Post subject: 
I've had the opportunity gaming in different languages and seriously. Intonation is something you can apply in every language and second more when Dutch is your mothertongue (as it also is mine) it should even be easier to do because f.e. in French I can't make extreme complex sentence structures and my knowledge limits me in choosing words. Just do some effort learning your own language.
Author:  Cointoss [ Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:32 am ]
Post subject: 
Yeah you guys are right, as I admitted in the previous post. I still don't really "like" the sound of it but there's no reason why it should affect anything practically!
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