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HELP!!...tired of the flakes...wtf am I doing wrong!
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Author:  chazman0426 [ Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:42 am ]
Post subject:  HELP!!...tired of the flakes...wtf am I doing wrong!
like the 5th girl in 3 weeks I actually start something going, they drop dead after like the 5th message. This one was actually on Okcupid. I actually got a message saying that we both rated each other 4/5 stars so that's when I made a move on this HB 8

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Me: Since your an INFJ, I can easily predict what type of girl you are. I'm very similar but not exactly INFJ, can you guess my type? I know what it is :)

I go to (my university) too, what are you studying?

PS: I beat most people at the number of countries I've been to, but you've been to 11 apparently. Which countries are they?


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(like 30 minutes later )

Her: Let's see.... I'll guess an ENTJ? A bit early for me to guess on my own :P

I majoring in International Studies, probably got something to do with all the travelling I've done. Let's see... the 11 are: Italy, France, Monaco, Wales, Scotland, San Marino, Mexico, Switzerland, Malta, Canada and one more.... maybe I counted the Vatican and if you count layovers, Germany should be in there too :P

Where have you been overseas?

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(the next day)

Me: Haha ok fair enough. I'm actually an INTP/INTJ I sorta get one or the other depending on what test I take.

International Studies is interesting :). So it seems like most of the countries you've visited are in Europe. That's neat. I've never been to Europe but really want to go someday.

I've actually lived in Hawaii for 3 years (if that counts as overseas) and recently Japan for 3 years. I've been to Hong Kong, Tokyo Japan, China, Taiwan, and the Bahamas :P. Canada and Europe(Germany or England) are next on my list. Totally avoiding Mexico and the middle east for now. I've also been to almost every state.



So brings you on here? What kind of guy or friend are you looking for?

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(literally 2 hours later)

Her: Cool, not sure Hawaii counts as another country, but overseas sure. (Guess I should add Puerto Rico to my list then too :P ) I assume military family to end up in Hawaii and Japan? I'm really jealous of your Asia travel... I really want to go. Do you speak any Japanese at all?

What brings me here.... mainly looking for dates, I'm trying to recapture that old concept of going on a few dates and seeing how they go rather than the typical college hookups/casual relationships. So heres to finding out if dating can still exist in college...

What about you?

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(8 hours later)

Me: No Hawaii doesn't count as a country :) but whether it's "overseas" is debatable. Yeah, my dad retired last summer from the Marine Corps so I grew up military. I loved the experience and miss it. I really want to start traveling again someday. I use to be able to speak basic Japanese but I forgot most of it :( . If I were to go back in time, I would have learned it at school as it was an option along with Chinese, I was just too far into learning Spanish at the time.

I'm on here to find dates too although I'm only on my 3rd or 4th week on here so I'm in no rush. Also I just wanted to try it out.

Would you be up to chatting sometime? I'm fine by phone or online, whatever your comfortable with :)


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and that's it. It's been 24 hours and she doesn't write back. As of now she was on 12 hours ago and I guess just didn't write back.

Since she's usually been pretty fast this leads me to believe I won't get a response back.

Where did I go wrong? Did I ask to chat(move to phone) too soon? Should I write another message in a day or two? How can I recover this one?
Author:  luthor [ Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:56 am ]
Post subject: 
Well my advice is don't use the line what kind of guy are you looking for? Every guy asks that and it has no purpose, if you're not the kind of guy she decribes then you might be fighting a loosing battle. And if you are the kind of guy, then you have to say, 'oh I'm that type of guy' which sounds lame. Plus she'll most likely answer in cliche, sense of humour, honesty etc.

Plus when she said she was looking for dates, you said you're looking for dates too, but it didn't sound like it was a date with her that you were looking for. I dunno how to describe it, it was like two ships sailing parrallel side by side, you need to set a collision course for her!! It was just like two friends talking.

I don't think you showed enough interest in her. And maybe you came off as too nice without enough edge.
Author:  minsok [ Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:08 am ]
Post subject: 
Okay, well you started out pretty lame, doing that harmless uncle thing I'm talking about here how-to-send-a-girl-a-message-vt83988.html?highlight= , but at least she cut through your bs and admitted she was there for dates and not to take quizes or for friends like most girls will play it off. You actually read what I said in that thread right,? It was practically addressed to you.

Tell me, what is your gut feeling reading your interaction here? My gut feeling is apathy. You don't seem excited, she's not that excited, it's boring to read. Your confidence is particularly flimsy when you get to the point of lets chat by phone or online, whatever you want to do, I'm the boring good guy. You still have a shot here, I'll give you the advice I always give when it's time to exchange numbers, validate her by saying she's got your interest, tell her what you like about her, the more specific and off the wall, the better, and then give her your number and tell her you want to follow up offline. If she's interested, she'll text you within a day. You weren't that interesting though, so it can really go either way. Ignore people that say not to give out your number, their advice is not based on reality. I've given out my number several times, usually the girl gives hers in the next message or outright texts me.
Author:  chazman0426 [ Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:35 am ]
Post subject: 
Thanks minsok, yeah I did read your thread before. I just didn't know what the deal was in this particular case. Since she was responding well then I thought I could dial down the cocky/funny stuff and just be more myself. So your saying I wasn't showing enough interest?

So how about I message her tomorrow saying

"I also like the fact that you like/do/are into bla bla bla. I find you very interesting and I want to get to know you more. We should meet up sometime :) here's my number......Otherwise it was nice talking to you"

Is this more towards what you mean, or how I should save this conversation?
So do you think next time I should be more direct, cocky/funny, ask more interesting questions? I'll re-read that thread but this stuff is proving to be much harder just to get a simple number/meet up than I ever thought it would be.
Author:  minsok [ Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:29 am ]
Post subject: 
Well, that's a perfectly fine message, it's just really vanilla. Also, cut out the "Otherwise it was nice talking to you" it assumes she's going to blow you off and if you're planning for failure, even halfway, you'll get it. I put a couple example messages I sent in my thread that I think were pretty good (though not risky enough). You can see they have a kind of enthusiasm and energy where yours is pretty dry and you can really read it just by skimming it. I think the key is to say something that will get a reaction. Like, "your hair's all silky, I can't wait to have you in front of me so I can give it a tug." or, "damn that is a low cut shirt, you will get major points if you wear that when we meet, though it might screw up my ability to make conversation."

Take some risks, you're being too safe and that makes you really easy to ignore. Keep in mind I'm not 100% on this shit, but I'm pretty sure I'm on the right track. Say SPECIFICALLY what made you talk to her, even if it's just because half her ass is showing in a picture, or it's because she mentioned she spent a lot of time thinking about sex. "Interesting" is the most over-used and most boring word in the english language. It's a dead word that has no feeling. Captivating, riveting, ravishing, anything is better; everyone says interesting, especially when they're not using their feelings.
Author:  chazman0426 [ Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ok I just sent this

Me: "We're both adults here so I'll be honest, I'm giving you a chance because you're somewhat attractive in your two pictures and because you have some nerdiness that's easy for me to relate to. I also like the fact that you are an INFJ and that you have been to 11 countries, this also gives you positive points. However your profile says your still a child and you say awkward/naive things. So I'm a little undecided here.....

I'll go against my better judgement and say lets pass up the games and skip to the fun part, we should meet up sometime :) Are you too shy for lunch/dinner? my number is............ "


What do you think? lets see if I get a reply.
Author:  minsok [ Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
Definitely better. You're kind of going back and forth, though. You don't ever want to make it sound like you're criticizing a girl because they subscribe to the romantic notion that a guy they're meant to be with will completely accept them as they are. "Against my better judgment" and "I'm undecided" and "I'm giving you a chance" are NOT enthusiastic language and make you sound arrogant. Not good.

Still, I'm glad my style works for you and despite those flaws, you have a fighting chance of escalating.
Author:  chazman0426 [ Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks, I'm just following what PUA built into me which is trying to qualify her for a date. She should have to qualify herself ect. If you put too much DHV into her you DLV yourself ect. But really, I'll try anything at this point because nothing is working.

Still no response but it's only been a few hours.
Author:  minsok [ Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
There's a good chance you're already out on this one. It sounds like you're fixating, start fresh with someone else and try being a creepy uncle from the get go.
Author:  chazman0426 [ Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
yikes I did get a response but not a good one.

Her: Wow, you really think a girl would say yes to meeting after a message like that? Please note I never said I was "still a child" but that I am a "child at heart," meaning that I can enjoy the simple things in life without getting caught up in the day to day banalities. As for the awkward/naive things, I don't think I've met anyone who hasn't found that endearing. If it was a bad quality, it would have made no sense to write it on my profile!

Don't even get me started on how you're giving me a chance (do you realize the ratio of guys to girls on here is way more in my favor than yours?) and how I'm apparently "somewhat attractive" - because that's definitely what every girl wants to hear. Please note the sarcasm dripping from that sentence.

Sorry, I don't want to be the girl who goes against your better judgement, especially when I'm being judged by a pompous jerk.

Look, I'm responding this way not to totally be a bitch but to let you know you probably need to tone it down if you do hope to meet girls through this site... insults are never going to get you anywhere.


I guess you were right Minsok. Any thoughts? Not sure how to recover from this one.
Author:  minsok [ Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
Yeah, those were all things I quoted, huh. You'll find your groove. If you want, you can apologize and tell her you didn't mean to come off like that, it's just you're not that good at writing letters and you're better on the phone, you can even tell her you got some bad advice if you want. Anyway, don't get discouraged, just be careful about seeming critical and arrogant, I'd say you lost this round.
Author:  chazman0426 [ Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:35 am ]
Post subject: 
Yeah but it pisses me off. It's a damned if you do damned if you don't type of thing. By being "myself" or "nice" as you put it I don't get a response. By being cocky/funny or arrogant in this case I get a negative response from some girls. I mean wtf do these girls want/look for. They totally ignore nice guys and curse the guys with balls. I guess find the balance in between?

I think a lot of girls on these sites have such inflated egos from all the guy attention they get that if their material on their profile is challenged in anyway even playfully they totally have a fit. I mean if It was in person, it would have been so obvious to her I was pulling her leg/messing around. Whatever. Thanks though.

How about I say "Sorry, I'm not that way at all, and I didn't mean to come off like that. It was meant to be playful but I guess it didn't come across that way. A guy told me to be more arrogant because girls like that bla bla bla. "

Or would it show more attraction or DHV if I don't even respond to her at all?
If you were in this situation, would you respond or just leave it as is and move on?

Also, what should I have said? What would you have said with all the arrogant stuff taken out.
Author:  minsok [ Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:07 am ]
Post subject: 
Well, you've seen the type of messages I send. I appreciate you didn't just copy and paste one of mine, but what you added was critical and condescending. You'll have to learn to be able to see where you're being negative/critical/over the top arrogant. Yeah, you got a somewhat negative response, but if you'd just kept it the way you had it, I'm fairly sure she would've just ignored you. I doubt you can reel her back in, it's up to you whether you feel like you were in the wrong enough to apologize or not.

One thing I don't do that I need to, is challenge a girl right at the beginning. It's hard to do that without sounding critical. Anyway, think of it this way. You can keep playing it safe and never make a girl angry again and keep being easy to ignore. Or you can take risks and still get ignored 66% of the time, but that other 33% of the time you'll get your foot in the door. The fact is online the penalty for being "risky" is the same penalty for being "safe"; you get ignored. However, the reward for being risky is that you escalate to a date whereas the reward for being safe is that you don't escalate but you're not ignored either. If you do the math, you'll realize there's no incentive to be the boring nice guy. At least you got a reaction instead of being harmless, I'd consider that progress.
Author:  chazman0426 [ Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:15 am ]
Post subject: 
Yeah your right. I'll just send this and let it be that (unless she responds)

Me: "Sorry, I didn't mean to come off like that. It was meant to be a playful (pulling your leg) kind of thing. I'm totally new at this and I guess I suck at writing letters :( I'm much better in person or on the phone. I was reading the okcupid forums and a lot of threads said men get better results if your more challenging and playful. But I guess that can come off as arrogant. Thanks for your tip. :)"
Author:  shockwave13 [ Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Well, you've seen the type of messages I send. I appreciate you didn't just copy and paste one of mine, but what you added was critical and condescending. You'll have to learn to be able to see where you're being negative/critical/over the top arrogant. Yeah, you got a somewhat negative response, but if you'd just kept it the way you had it, I'm fairly sure she would've just ignored you. I doubt you can reel her back in, it's up to you whether you feel like you were in the wrong enough to apologize or not.

One thing I don't do that I need to, is challenge a girl right at the beginning. It's hard to do that without sounding critical. Anyway, think of it this way. You can keep playing it safe and never make a girl angry again and keep being easy to ignore. Or you can take risks and still get ignored 66% of the time, but that other 33% of the time you'll get your foot in the door. The fact is online the penalty for being "risky" is the same penalty for being "safe"; you get ignored. However, the reward for being risky is that you escalate to a date whereas the reward for being safe is that you don't escalate but you're not ignored either. If you do the math, you'll realize there's no incentive to be the boring nice guy. At least you got a reaction instead of being harmless, I'd consider that progress.
This is just my 2 cents.

The problems I seen were this.

I will give you a step by step of what I seen.

First what is a pick up artist? You build dreams. You're worldly. It's someone who gets a lot of women. You're choice of all the BEST WOMEN. Someone who has a wonderful life with incredible charmed people inside of it. Its someone exciting! Its someone charming and playful. Everyone wants to be you and everyone wants to hang out with you.

Do you really think you portrayed this to her? How much playful chemistry on a scale of 1 to 10, did you think you built with her?

So lets go analyze your thread...

Message 1: not a bad opener. You got your foot in the door.

Message 2: (30 minutes later) she replies, so she is around, and interested. Good sign and you're on your way

Message 3: You gave her time to miss you (whether you meant to or not, it was probably a good idea) You established you're a worldly person. Should peak her interest. You're doing great. You're on top of the fucking world!!!!!1

Then you ask her this question? :)

YOU: So what brings you on here? What kind of guy or friend are you looking for?

ERROR ERROR lol :)

What do you care what guy she is interested in? You're not like other guys... right?? You need to establish this fact, so avoid questions like this. It gives her the power... and her the control.

What do you think brings her on a dating site? Dating right? :)

You are letting her know you are interested. You need to let her know you're interested by not letting her no you're interested and not telling her at this moment. Where were all your good negs? Where was anything playful? You did well with the travel info, but this question to me, DLV'd. This was the time you whip out one more gem, and got her talking about herself, so she could try to DHV to you.

So you at this point, have lost the push and pull in the mystery method. But all is not lost... :) We can fuck up at many times, and it's still not lost.

Message 4: she messaged you 2 hours later! ALL IS NOT LOST! And you're on your way again. But now you have to work double on negs and get some chemistry and or mystery flowing.

At this point, what image or value did you feel about yourself??

You should be thinking things like this...

OH MY FUCKING GOD.. am I hot. Any woman would be lucky to be with me. I LOVE LIFE!! I'm so hot, fun and charming, I break fucking mirrors when I pass. And my intellectual prowess is bar NONE! NOW LETS HAVE FUN. LETS BE WILD! :)

Do you think you portrayed this at this stage? Well you should be...

Message 5 (downhill stage)

HER: Cool, not sure Hawaii counts as another country, but overseas sure.
YOU: No Hawaii doesn't count as a country Smile but whether it's "overseas" is debatable.

NOT really a neg but this one is null and void...

HER: I assume military family to end up in Hawaii and Japan?

Perfect time for a neg, or some wicked ass story about how cool you are or some exotic location you've been to... but you say..

YOU: Yeah, my dad retired last summer from the Marine Corps so I grew up military. I loved the experience and miss it.

So basically you say another null statement when you could be building chemistry or mystery....

HER: I'm really jealous of your Asia travel... I really want to go. Do you speak any Japanese at all?

LOOK AT all this gold in here... She is eating up your Asia travel. And she loves that you speak japanese. SO NOW YOU'RE SET. How does she know if you speak 20 languages? You could joke that you do... and later reveal that you don't know anything... that doesn't matter... because all you have IS THIS MOMENT!

All you need to do is whip out some cool mandarin and your getting laid tonight!


YOU SAY: I really want to start traveling again someday. I use to be able to speak basic Japanese but I forgot most of it

So you DLV and say you Asian card, the thing she was most interested about, you speaking japanese while you fuck the shit out of her tonight, but you say you forgot and demonstrate that you may have a shitty memory.

You can keep building chemistry, but you need to push and pull again!


YOU: Would you be up to chatting sometime? I'm fine by phone or online, whatever your comfortable with

Why would you ask her? That goes against the whole mystery method. Trick her in to bed. You haven't really built any chemistry and only a little bit of mystery which you have dispelled in the above statement. Make her think its a pleasure to give her number to you.. .or trick her out of it, if chemistry isn't fully built. At this point, you have no real right to ask her for her phone number.

You have DLVed, put yourself in to the friend category, and there is no push and pull. Its mostly pull by you... and a little pull by her, but you don't push her away.... then when she is showing interest, you are losing her at this point. BUT ALL IS NOT LOST ! LOL

I find the coolest thing about the mystery method, even though Mystery says, the first 6 seconds is to buy you the first 20 seconds, is to buy you the next minute is to buy you the next 2 mins etc. You almost always have a chance, but your game has to go up proportionately as you fuck up. The more you fuck up, the more proportional you need to build chemistry. So all is not lost.

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YOU: and that's it. It's been 24 hours and she doesn't write back. As of now she was on 12 hours ago and I guess just didn't write back.

Since she's usually been pretty fast this leads me to believe I won't get a response back.

Where did I go wrong? Did I ask to chat(move to phone) too soon? Should I write another message in a day or two? How can I recover this one?


=================================================

That was where you were at that point. You were basically at ground zero, or so very close to it.

Imagine a scale of seconds you got to spend with a beautiful woman. At any moment she could leave and you'd never talk to her again. How are you spending those moments? Is she captivated? Is she smiling? Is she getting wet? Is she excited?

Can you say you built any of those moments for her, in the first set of messages? If not, just remember this.

Women are wild, beautiful creatures. Its an immense pleasure to spend even just a little bit of time, with the most beautiful women of our species. So why take it for granted! Get her soaking fucking wet... make her feel you're leaving. Make her feel you're so important you have better things to do then hang around her and talk to a woman right now (as beautiful as she is)

NEGS: negs are negative compliments... that means you are actually complimenting someone but there is a playful twist in there. You never demean a beautiful creature. You always give them the highest respect. But what you also do, is show them, you cannot be walked over and that your playful (did he just put me down or was he joking? im sure he was joking). You are a beautiful creature yourself... and you have higher value then her. So you need to portray that fact. You need to show HER .... that SHE IS THE THE SHIT... but hey chick, WE KNOW YOU'RE HOT, we know every guy wants you, but hey chick, you just carry my bags.... :)

Thats how hot you are. If you think she is hot, then you have to be hotter then her. But you also need to show her that she is HOT FUCKING STUFF as well. When do you ever do this?? And also when do you ever do this about yourself?

That is where I see you going wrong.

You don't have to be something other then yourself. But really think highly of yourself. But not only that, (and this is important) REALLY think highly of HER. If you act as if you are better then her, or she isnt worth much, then why are you even talking to her. By devaluing her, you are actually devaluing yourself... You're just insulting her beauty and intelligence.

This is where I think you went wrong. From almost step one, you didnt neg enough, you didnt build on your stories, you didnt build the chemistry enough (you started too but you needed to step it up big time)

So at this point, ALL IS NOT LOST :) You still can bring this around....


But now you have to do double, and be double charming to her, build double chemistry and then push her away a bit. But she has the ball in her court. So that is a tough one to come back from. You have to tip the sea saw back in your direction at this point.

SHE ISN'T ANSWERING. So now you made the correct move...

this is your... "okay i fucked up email... im sorry" lol

BUT --------------> give her the gift of missing you.. at this point. You opened the door. She isn't really leaving. In person this is a no no. You probably won't ever see her again, so you have only that one opportunity. But this is online, we have the magic of the TRAP. She can't get away, you have her messaging through okcupid. As long as you dont stalk, you can come back!

Now we don't want to come across as stalkers, thats why we give her a bit of time. Make her think... well where the fuck was that guy.... why hasn't he tried again, like all the other guys. So you make her forget you... just a lil.

Then you come back with a story of how you've toppled a few dictatorships, saved a beautiful princess from drowning and then got your highlights done :)

YOU RETURN with this message way too soon...


Message 6: Me: "We're both adults here so I'll be honest, I'm giving you a chance because you're somewhat attractive in your two pictures and because you have some nerdiness that's easy for me to relate to. I also like the fact that you are an INFJ and that you have been to 11 countries, this also gives you positive points. However your profile says your still a child and you say awkward/naive things. So I'm a little undecided here.....

I'll go against my better judgement and say lets pass up the games and skip to the fun part, we should meet up sometime Smile Are you too shy for lunch/dinner? my number is............ "


===============================================

YOU:
You'll be honest?
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