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What Pickup has Become is Hurting Most Guys, IMHO
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Author:  poodogr [ Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:39 pm ]
Post subject:  What Pickup has Become is Hurting Most Guys, IMHO
I thought about whether or not to post this, but based on some observations on some of the main material out there, and what guys I've seen seem to be getting out of this lately, I really think lots of guys are coming out of this thing, as it is, worse off than when they went in.

Lets start with a lot of the in-home study material out there. To build your inner game, most of these seem to say something to the effect of, you should walk around with these two assumptions:

1. Delusional sense that you are the coolest person on earth, as far as you're concerned.

2. You don't give a @#$% what anyone thinks about you, ever.

I've even seen it taken to the extreme where instructors in DVD sets are encouraging rooms of people to do really over-the-top, dickhead type stuff, and reassuring them:

"Dude, you're not gonna get attacked or beat up, ever. I've taught tons of bootcamps and nothing ever happens."

"The only time this may get you in trouble is if you're in a frat house with a bunch of drunk pissed off guys."

Unfortunately I've seen far too many guys follow these suggested mindsets, (maybe not even the specific tactics) and:

1. Get kicked out of bars and clubs.

2. Get their asses kicked by boyfriends or friends of girls.

3. End up coming of as total arrogant, outlandish assholes to girls, while true, no longer appearing timid or afraid to approach, are in just as bad a position, if not worse.

Now lets talk about the live, or "bootcamp" setting:

I've attended a bootcamp, and my feelings were similar to a lot of those I've spoken with, who've attended other bootcamps:

"Man, I felt like more of a social retard throughout THIS whole thing, than I do at home!"

"At least I can hold my own at home and get results. I've gotten makeouts, taken girls home, etc. but when I'm with a pick-up class in a venue, it's like the girls just smell it, that confidence is gone."

"Man I've done so much better back at home! What's going on with me this weekend? I came here to sharpen my skills, but why am I getting worse results here, than I've gotten in a while??"

That's a major flaw in the bootcamp setup, from what I've seen.

When you have some 15 guys or so, and a handful of these recognized pooah's who are seen as THE authority, any confidence these guys brought with them goes right out the window.

It's like this psychological curtain that's hanging over the whole event, whether it's a week-long thing or a weekend class that's drilling into their heads, "You guys don't know anything and that's why you're in this class. We're the experts"

Some classes have these loud flamboyant instructors that come into the venue and kind of establish their territory and social standing through some real overt behavior early on (hugging bartenders/waitresses, setting up meet-ups with waitresses after they get off of work, as soon as they get in) leaving the students looking like a bunch of leppers who would feel lucky to have the first girl even look at them.

I'm not sure how this is going to be fixed, but it's definitely a problem in the community.

Maybe the self-directed path really is the way to go, after all, they do say, "Follow those who seek the truth, run from those who claim to have found it." I'm not sure. Thoughts?
Author:  GodMode [ Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well I agree with you in that attitude of don't care and fuck you world are taught alot, but I can also tell you it works. The idea though, is to lift off the fake face you hide behind and let the real you be unleashed (the best you). Most guys are awesome in the inside and they know it; they have just suppressed it with what they think people want to see (or) they feel they aren't allowed to express it. Some of the nerds in those bootcamps have suffered a life of hardship and pain and/or severe trauma; therefore they are angry at the world...when they take off that fake face it shows who they really are; ugly little bitter lunatics who want to see the world burn and have an extreme sense of entitlement.
Author:  neurotico [ Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Most guys are awesome in the inside and they know it; they have just suppressed it with what they think people want to see (or) they feel they aren't allowed to express it. Some of the nerds in those bootcamps have suffered a life of hardship and pain and/or severe trauma; therefore they are angry at the world...when they take off that fake face it shows who they really are; ugly little bitter lunatics who want to see the world burn and have an extreme sense of entitlement.
Right,,, I am sure there is always a handful of men who can not handle the shift in perception (the way others perceive them) and they act-a-fool. I say ingest all the knowledge you can gather, use what works for you and,,,, and that's a big AND, always try what worked for someone else, be it outlandish attire or speech. It may be what you were missing.

:)
Author:  poodogr [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:02 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Well I agree with you in that attitude of don't care and fuck you world are taught alot, but I can also tell you it works. The idea though, is to lift off the fake face you hide behind and let the real you be unleashed (the best you). Most guys are awesome in the inside and they know it; they have just suppressed it with what they think people want to see (or) they feel they aren't allowed to express it. Some of the nerds in those bootcamps have suffered a life of hardship and pain and/or severe trauma; therefore they are angry at the world...when they take off that fake face it shows who they really are; ugly little bitter lunatics who want to see the world burn and have an extreme sense of entitlement.
Godmode, that's true. I definitely agree with you on the nerds maybe using this advice to lash out at society.

My problem is that pickup, from many companies, is marketed as the end-solution for these people with deep-seated life issues.

I think Stormy put it best when he said, "You may need therapy if you're in pickup."

To go after these people with problems that pickup, admitedly, doesn't even scratch the surface of, is just downright dishonest and misleading.
Author:  Ezo [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
This saddens me.

There are so many people who just dont get it. Yes people are taught to go around with the mindset that they are the coolest guys ever and to not give a fuck about what people think of them. As long as you use this in the way it is meant to be used there is nothing wrong about it. When you start to abuse it, you are not only an asshole but also completely clueless as to why you are taught to think this way.

People constantly forget that in addition to having this mindset we are also expected to be friendly (yes thats right). We are supposed to befriend girls, guys anyone we meet who are worthy of our attention. A superior male is not always an asshole, a superior male can also be extremely nice. Think of it as a good or a bad boss.

Never forget that the people who teach are people too, they teach from their own experiences. When they started out they were in need of boosting their own selfimage, to feel that they deserve the best life has to offer. Almost all of us started out feeling that we did not deserve anything, we were bad looking, stupid, misunderstood, losers... That is not a healthy mindset. Our gurus teach us to replace that mindset with one where we deserve the best. Why wouldnt we, we are awsome. On the other hand, so are most of the people on this planet if we just get to know them. We are meant to unravel the inner workings of the game before we go out acting like assholes. We are meant to get our issues fixed and to understand that having a mindset where we are the greatest guys ever does not mean that it gives us the right to treat others like crap.

Concerning the second mindset (people shouldnt give a fuck about what others think), we are meant to use that to strengthen ourselves, not to treat others like crap. Many of us use this mindset to justify their actions. Taking revenge on the world and whenever people complain they just dont care. Isnt that a convenient way to understand this teaching? Again, this is a weapon meant for self protection not for attack.
Scenario A: A guy tries to diminish you. You dont care. That is great!
Scenario B: You treat somebody like crap and he tells you that it is not ok. You should most definately care! To not care is not OK in this case.

We are supposed to calibrate, we are supposed to understand social interaction and not just use our "new powers" to be jerks. If the PUA teachings creates people who act like jerks it is because they were jerks from the beginning. We only gave them the tools to express themselves.

Are we responsible for creating bad people because we teach them how to have a strong inner game? Yes, in the same way that a gym instructor is responsible for creating strong jerks who go out fighting in the street.

Ezo
Author:  Hayatori [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
Really, you don't have to be the nicest guy in the world but you don't have to be a complete asshole either.

being a nice guy DOES NOT MEAN BEING A PUSH OVER.

Being mean in a playful way isn't being a jerk unless your serious about it.

Another problem is that usually someone in the relationship will try to control the other person.

You need to control the situation, not the other person.

Really, you don't need to be a COMPLETE jerk or a COMPLETE nice guy. You need to have positive traits of both Jerks and Nice Guys.

Positive Nice Guy Traits: Kind, Friendly, Organized.

Positive Jerk Traits: Confident, High Self Esteem, Honest (about what they want), Not afraid to take the lead.

Jerks are not afraid to speak their mind or offend anyone.

Notice how Jerks have more positive traits. This is why women fall for them more often.

I'm not saying you should be a jerk. Really, if you want to get women, you should be both aka being yourself. See, everyone have both good and evil in them. You just need to keep them balanced without being too nice or too mean.
Author:  Jav [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
COMMON SENSE STILL APPLIES IN PICK-UP, WE'RE NOT DOING GOD-LIKE STUFF
Author:  Ezo [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
Jav!

Amen to that.
Author:  Mr. Amador [ Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:12 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
COMMON SENSE STILL APPLIES IN PICK-UP, WE'RE NOT DOING GOD-LIKE STUFF
About the common sense, you are absolutely right.

About the god-like stuff, talk for yourself!!!
Author:  Warped Mindless [ Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:53 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
COMMON SENSE STILL APPLIES IN PICK-UP, WE'RE NOT DOING GOD-LIKE STUFF
Common sense isn't so common.
Author:  kasabi [ Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
This is what happens when you haven't "earned" your rights to anything. What happens to people who make easy money? What happens to people get receive a diploma after 6 years of drinking and smoking dope?

You can't "talk yourself" into becoming a cool person. You can't "talk yourself" into feeling less hurt by what others think of you. Like anything else, personal attributes need to be earned. Unfortunately, it seems you don't need to earn anything to host a boot camp; a loud mouth and enough brain power to memorize a flash card filled with pick up lines seems to do the trick.
Author:  chillinvillin [ Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What Pickup has Become is Hurting Most Guys, IMHO
Quote:
I thought about whether or not to post this, but based on some observations on some of the main material out there, and what guys I've seen seem to be getting out of this lately, I really think lots of guys are coming out of this thing, as it is, worse off than when they went in.

Lets start with a lot of the in-home study material out there. To build your inner game, most of these seem to say something to the effect of, you should walk around with these two assumptions:

1. Delusional sense that you are the coolest person on earth, as far as you're concerned.

2. You don't give a @#$% what anyone thinks about you, ever.

I've even seen it taken to the extreme where instructors in DVD sets are encouraging rooms of people to do really over-the-top, dickhead type stuff, and reassuring them:

"Dude, you're not gonna get attacked or beat up, ever. I've taught tons of bootcamps and nothing ever happens."

"The only time this may get you in trouble is if you're in a frat house with a bunch of drunk pissed off guys."

Unfortunately I've seen far too many guys follow these suggested mindsets, (maybe not even the specific tactics) and:

1. Get kicked out of bars and clubs.

2. Get their asses kicked by boyfriends or friends of girls.

3. End up coming of as total arrogant, outlandish assholes to girls, while true, no longer appearing timid or afraid to approach, are in just as bad a position, if not worse.

Now lets talk about the live, or "bootcamp" setting:

I've attended a bootcamp, and my feelings were similar to a lot of those I've spoken with, who've attended other bootcamps:

"Man, I felt like more of a social retard throughout THIS whole thing, than I do at home!"

"At least I can hold my own at home and get results. I've gotten makeouts, taken girls home, etc. but when I'm with a pick-up class in a venue, it's like the girls just smell it, that confidence is gone."

"Man I've done so much better back at home! What's going on with me this weekend? I came here to sharpen my skills, but why am I getting worse results here, than I've gotten in a while??"

That's a major flaw in the bootcamp setup, from what I've seen.

When you have some 15 guys or so, and a handful of these recognized pooah's who are seen as THE authority, any confidence these guys brought with them goes right out the window.

It's like this psychological curtain that's hanging over the whole event, whether it's a week-long thing or a weekend class that's drilling into their heads, "You guys don't know anything and that's why you're in this class. We're the experts"

Some classes have these loud flamboyant instructors that come into the venue and kind of establish their territory and social standing through some real overt behavior early on (hugging bartenders/waitresses, setting up meet-ups with waitresses after they get off of work, as soon as they get in) leaving the students looking like a bunch of leppers who would feel lucky to have the first girl even look at them.

I'm not sure how this is going to be fixed, but it's definitely a problem in the community.

Maybe the self-directed path really is the way to go, after all, they do say, "Follow those who seek the truth, run from those who claim to have found it." I'm not sure. Thoughts?
You're totally right lol. I was feeling kind of less confident/hit a dry spell so I checked out these forums. I did some "online" gaming I guess which worked ok b/c I didn't know the girls I was doing it to. I tried to hit on 1 of my close friends that was a girl using the tactics posted. She laughed but she was like ur weird. lol. After reading most of these posts I realize that my game is fine.... So basically these posts gave me more confidence in that I am doing the right thing. As for the part where you talk about the boot camps telling you to be the shit. Well yea.. if you're not a girl will never want to talk to you. At least a hot one that wants to fuck in one or 2 times meeting her.
Author:  magnum45 [ Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:47 am ]
Post subject: 
When you pay someone for advice, and that person is helpoing you get laid, you are not going to fill good about yourself.
Author:  PUAdave [ Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
The reality is just this one belief system alone if you can get it would change your life.

NOT GIVING A FUCK WHAT ANYONE THINKS ABOUT YOU

the reality also is that no one IMO will ever fully achieve that. We can move towards it as a goal and I know for a fact I do care much much less at this point. That really has made all the difference in not only how I approach life but especially in pick up. I have less fear than I once did and more control of myself and emotions. It's powerful & I think makes you a better man because the more you grasp it the more power you give yourself.

I don't think anyone is telling anyone to go out and be your worst self, it's about betterment. they set you on this direction so you're not so caught up in your head and self critisims & social pressure that don't allow you to break through.

I can tell you this when you can work diliousonal belief systems like "im the coolest fucker on the planet" it does give you soical power but I think in general the RSD phylosphy is more away from the ego structure because it can crumble.

Bottomline is to be good at pick up and to go out and put yourself out there where you can constantly be rejected. Doing that especially as a newbie your belief systems need to be reframed to handle it or you would never last IMO unless you naturally have these beliefs. That's why 15% of the guys sleep with 85% of the women or whatever. That's the guys that got this glitch structured their beliefs to handle it and pushed through & are probably some of the most successful people not just with women but in life in general because they are on their path & don't feel the fear to act or fail because they do care less what people would think.
Author:  PUAdave [ Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
I've tried on many different behaviors while learning pick up, & I have actually opened women, with

"You like douchebags... I am one"

or while in conversation they mention a douchebag BF, or asshole, jerk, an evil man etc I always say, yeah I am one ,& I really try to sell it to seriously as I can now.

It's pretty much become a routine at this point because I know it will only makes them more interested 100% of the time when it should in reality make them run away from me.

Here is what happens though, by the end of our interaction almost all thes girls have come to the conclusion that Im really a nice guy inside all of them, but that's not really what got them excited to talk to me or kept them there IMO.

I do consider myself a nice guy and usually that comes out and blows me out later and they lose attraction and maybe it's is because I really am but honestly in these interactions I keep with the aloof I don't give a shit bad boy persona. I just think these girls just constantly backwards rationalize it and see what they want to see.
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