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| On Assumptions https://www.pick-up-artist-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=56537 |
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| Author: | Monkey [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | On Assumptions |
In two seperate threads in three days back on the forum, I've had to deal with this strange notion that the men here know what every woman in the whole world wants. I believe that this assumption is a terrible mistake, and that the consequences of continuing to practice pick-up under it's thrall are catastrophic enough that they need address. The pick-up artist community is built around the idea that certain learned skills and traits will increase a man's ability to attract a mate. For the most part, this is true; there are things you can do and ways you can act that will increase your chances of finding a good looking woman who wants those things in a man. When these behaviors show strong rates of success, we tend to assume that this implies "this is a behavior women want in a man." This line of thinking is dangerous, sexist, incorrect, and it's turning a lot of us into douchebags. I don't think anyone on this forum (up to and including our good friend AFC Adam) has a 100% pull ratio. On my absolute best days, I have a 75% k-close rate, and that has only ever happened twice in my four-year career as a pick-up artist. The test to become a "master" pick-up artist has long been held as "five for five," five closes in five sets. Why not six for six? Or ten for ten? Or fifty for fifty? Because it's really fucking improbable, and we'd have maybe two mPUAs in the world. Having made the five for five benchmark a few times in my career, one would think I could say with certainty that "this is a behavior women want in a man," about any one of the things I've learned from the community. But I cannot, and will not, say that there is any universally attractive feature in a man, woman, goat, whathaveyou. There is simply no characteristic that every woman you desire will find attractive, I'm sorry. Sometimes, when a technique that has worked in the past does not work at a later time, pick-up artists will blame their delivery, the technique itself (it's "unreliable"), or some other factor when, in reality, the woman in question simply didn't respond to the trait being communicated through that technique with an attraction response. This is part of the reason that the community focuses on not taking rejection personally: sometimes, the technique does not have the desired effect, so you move on and try again. Maybe your next target will respond with attraction. The most popular and widely acknowledged pick-up art in the world today, Erik Markovik's, utilizes this principle to perfection. What Erik has created is a set of behaviors that correspond well with the idea that women are not to be idealized, allowing you to move through many sets of women in a single night, increasing the chances that you will find one that is attracted to that set of behaviors. It's amazingly effective because it _hinges_ on the idea that you can't have them all, and is congruent with brushing your previous target off to find a woman more in tune with the method. Something that I have found greatly increases my own chances with any given woman is a period of "discovery" during my attraction and comfort phases, in which any given statement or question is used as a cold-read. The statements and questions contain various DHV spikes, and I try and hone in on the style of spikes my target responds to most visibly; in sales, we use this technique to try an ascertain the hot buttons a potential client is actually interested in (as opposed to the features they tell you they're interested in, because potential clients always lie to you ^_^). While I still haven't attained a 100% close rate, this method of discovery has greatly increased my chances to close above a number close. Where normally I would get a number, I will more often get a k-close, and k-closes turn into f-closes with more frequency. Now, a lot of boys are taking some exception to this approach because they feel it puts the pussy back on a pedestal. Understand that the discovery happens under a more normal version of pick-up than I'm sure most of you are imagining. It looks, in fact, a lot like Juggler Method. The only real difference is in fine-tuning the open-ended statements and questions to reflect the DHV spikes she has shown the most interest in. Why does this work? Because it isn't relying on my preconcieved notion of what women like in a man. It relies instead on the idea that each woman I speak to will react differently to different demonstrations of value, that I will need to rely on my ability to read people to better understand what they want in a man. Sometimes, those things line up with the standard Alpha Male fare. A lot of times, those things don't, and I would have lost the target with the sort of bullshit Alphas are known for. Don't allow yourself to think that you know "what women want." Think, instead, "what does THIS woman want?" |
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| Author: | Jav [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I like to respond to this thread with the following. I think that doing pick-up solely for the reason to get girls is a wrong mindset. My own and personal reason for starting with pick-up was because I wanted to improve myself (I discovered this later on, I was disillusioned with getting girls aswell). I view the girls I get a nice bonus. But ultimately it's about my own progress. I don't care getting blown-out or a lay. What counts is my improvement as a human being. This whole pick-up community can mess you up by thinking in terms of sets/obstacles/DHV's/neg's/Random senseless pu terms. Rather than changing yourself for one moment to get a certain girl by, change yourself in total Needless to say I dig natural game for that reason. |
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| Author: | TheJ [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
There is a lot to think about in this post (and in the few replies so far.) One thing that got me thinking is: "Well woudn't it be nice to know what type of girls really attract me and in turn what attracts them. That way I could aim my self improvement that way to improve my chances with them." Then again you say that whether 2 girls are (let's name a few qualities I like) passionate about wine, cultured, health concious, outgoing, athletic, caring, goal oriented, emotionally stable, energetic... those 2 similar girls most likely won't be attracted by the same male characteristics? I whole heartedly agree that no type will attract all women. I'm just wondering if Men Type Y will attract Women type X with consistency. Any thoughts on this? |
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| Author: | Ryan Black SashaPUA [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Quote: Quote: The statements and questions contain various DHV spikes, and I try and hone in on the style of spikes my target responds to most visibly; in sales, we use this technique to try an ascertain the hot buttons a potential client is actually interested in (as opposed to the features they tell you they're interested in, because potential clients always lie to you ^_^).
Could you elaborate on this method? |
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| Author: | Monkey [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Quote: Could you elaborate on this method?
Sure.It requires a few of your skills already be very strong, in particular cold reads and body language. By cold-reading, I don't mean vague statements that apply to everyone (those are good too, but aren't going to help you here), but instead your ability to make a statement, read her reaction as you speak and edit it so that it falls more in line. Subtle things like a tightening of the mouth, or a peak into a smile, or the widening of eyes can all mean something important. Unless she's a strong poker player, her face should tell you her emotional reaction to what you're saying. So let's say I'm talking about protecting my loved ones. Her eyes widen a touch at the mention of my little brother, so I put in a few details about my relationship with him, or a funny story about how he tried to kill my other brother with a stick, but her mouth tightens up at the mention of violence, so I shift to talking about how that sort of thing is rare in my family, we're a very communicative bunch, and we like to talk things out. If her face relaxes when I shift to communication, I've got a hot button: family and communication. I can hit that all day and know I'm going to be hitting something hot. So you start with a DHV spike, any DHV spike, and gauge reactions. Hone in on the hot buttons with statements you can edit while you're saying them, and hit those buttons hard and often. The best part about the above example is that it's all from my life, so despite what my detractors might think, I'm not "changing myself" to fit her, I'm just illuminating different parts of my life, things that resonate with her, to build huge value and connection. |
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| Author: | Sexcellent [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Quote: Sure. It requires a few of your skills already be very strong, in particular cold reads and body language. By cold-reading, I don't mean vague statements that apply to everyone (those are good too, but aren't going to help you here), but instead your ability to make a statement, read her reaction as you speak and edit it so that it falls more in line. Subtle things like a tightening of the mouth, or a peak into a smile, or the widening of eyes can all mean something important. Unless she's a strong poker player, her face should tell you her emotional reaction to what you're saying. So let's say I'm talking about protecting my loved ones. Her eyes widen a touch at the mention of my little brother, so I put in a few details about my relationship with him, or a funny story about how he tried to kill my other brother with a stick, but her mouth tightens up at the mention of violence, so I shift to talking about how that sort of thing is rare in my family, we're a very communicative bunch, and we like to talk things out. If her face relaxes when I shift to communication, I've got a hot button: family and communication. I can hit that all day and know I'm going to be hitting something hot. So you start with a DHV spike, any DHV spike, and gauge reactions. Hone in on the hot buttons with statements you can edit while you're saying them, and hit those buttons hard and often. The best part about the above example is that it's all from my life, so despite what my detractors might think, I'm not "changing myself" to fit her, I'm just illuminating different parts of my life, things that resonate with her, to build huge value and connection. |
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