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| Indirect vs. Direct: The Big Debate https://www.pick-up-artist-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=55913 |
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| Author: | Ryan Black SashaPUA [ Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Indirect vs. Direct: The Big Debate |
I'm flipping back and forth between different opinions on this at the moment. Like most people on here, I learned the indirect method from people like mystery, and thought it made perfect sense. Going indirect doesn't force the girl to make a decision about whether she wants to fuck you or not from the very beginning. Instead you lead the interaction towards her wanting you by starting off from a position of false (but "active") disinterest. This can give confidence to guys who worry that their looks or body language might not make an HB10 instantly fall in love with them the moment they see them. On the other hand, I'm also thinking that maybe I'm just being a pussy by not going direct. I'm just backwards rationalising my fear of getting blown out immediately by thinking that direct game is not "my style" when actually if I just did it with confidence it would work too. Going back to indirect, I also feel as though it fits better with the idea of trying to game the whole venue and build social proof, which I like. Then again, Gunwich does pretty well and he doesn't give a shit about making friends with anybody. Also, maybe ANY indirect opener is still making a girl decide, and she's just being polite while all the time KNOWING exactly what you're up to anyway, so why not just go direct in the first place? Thoughts? |
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| Author: | JSmooth [ Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Wow this debate is always going on. I did a blog post about this and it got pretty long and in depth. I'll spare you all that. Personally, after starting with the Mystery Method much like you and going more natural I prefer Direct. There was something that Sinn or Captain Jack said that stuck with me. Keep in mind this isn't a direct quote because this is from my half flawed memory but the content is basically the same. He was mostly talking about how to obtain same night lays but still it's the same thing with me. He said something like, "I like going direct because you don't spend lots of time in a set that isn't going anywhere." Now that I think of it I do believe it was Sinn. I don't want to spend 20 minutes in a set disarming obstacles, dhving, etc. just to get to attraction and find out she has a boyfriend or some bull----. I know this forces the girl to make a very quick decision based on external factors but that's fine by me. I actually have a lot of success with opening direct in all types of environments. |
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| Author: | jbrad [ Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I actually just responded to a similar thread... I think its good to do direct approaches to increase the size of your balls, but truthfully, going in under the radar is always better. It's better for the very reason that Mystery and Style for said: It doesn't give her an opportunity to reject you right off the bat. This is especially important for guys who are short/dorky looking but have good game. If you put it all out on the table, even if she doesn't reject you there is going to be more resistance. |
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| Author: | Falcony [ Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:16 pm ] |
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I think a bit of both usually works best for me then I get the best of both worlds. I am not wasting lots of time trying to make friends with everyone but my cards are not also revealed too much so she doesn't have all the power. |
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| Author: | Playfellow [ Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Is there actually an "indirect" way? Think about it. If there is a nice young woman in a bar and a guy asks her for female opinion on some question there are 3 main things that can go through her mind (depending on your body language and presentation): 1) He is making a survey (not good for you) 2) He doesn't know many girls and probably is alone in the club so he is coming to start a boring conversation (not good for you) 3) He is just being friendly and maybe he is hitting on me but is not threatening right now Attractive girls tend to assume that everybody is hitting or them!!! The only difference between "indirect" and "direct" is that the first way delays the moment when she has to decide if she likes you or not. This is good because you can get to know her as a person. Going in "direct" on the other side has the advantages that if you make a good first impression you can build massive attraction and it also shows dominance and projects your sexuality. And to be hones not many girls go to bars to meet the guy they are going to marry. So stating your intentions can help you improve your success. But after all the most important thing is to find your own style. It doesn't matter if you ask her about something or just go and tell her what you think about her. It's even ok to ask somebody else to introduce her to you. You should not be worrying about the way you initiate the conversation as long as you get the results you want. |
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| Author: | Slywalker [ Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
In my oppinion and in my game, sneaky and indirect approaches are a waste of time. Make sure the girl knows your intensions immediately! I don't care about rejects so I can approach direct to a girl and if she isn't interested I approach another one and so forth, that way I never waste time on an approach that doesnt go anywhere! However, for learning the game, indirect is very useful.! |
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| Author: | Ryan Black SashaPUA [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Good responses all around. Here's my question to Direct gamers: If you go into a venue and just go straight up to the finest 2-set of HB10s and just tell them that you'd be kicking yourself all night if you didn't go up and say hi, and you get BLOWN THE FUCK OUT right away... You know perfectly well that a lot of people are gonna notice that - because a lot of people are gonna be looking at those girls too. Suddenly, right after your first set, you are THAT GUY who's hitting on every girl. This WILL lower your social value immediately, even if you literally don't give a shit. It will. However, if I go into the same club and talk to tons of guys and girls first, and THEN approach the HB10s indirect, then to them I'm just the friendly guy that everyone in the place seems to know and like. That puts me at a huge advantage when I approach, EVEN IF they assume that my opinion opener is a pick up line and they're having to decide whether to fuck me or not. |
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| Author: | Sexcellent [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:58 am ] |
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in my experience indirect is better than direct direct can work, but it makes things more difficult, and it increases your chances of being blown out. i think that if you live in a small town, and people are not overly judgmental, going direct works more than if you live in a big city. the more people are around people, the more they tend to put up social barriers. a hot girl who lives on a farm in the middle of nowhere hasn't been told she's hot 20 times a day. a hot girl who lives in NYC probably has. so going direct on the city girl is going to much more risky than going direct on the country girl here's a specific illustration: a) approaching a mixed set of HB10's and dudes in a night club in NYC b) approaching a HB7 in a small town at the grocery store during the day in situation A, i think that if you go direct you have a high probability of being blown out. in situation B, if you go direct you are probably much safer than situation A. however, both situations A and B, if you go indirect there should be no difference. the probability of being blown out should be the same, and i see no reason why it would be any less if you go direct. so going direct is like going skiing with only one ski. if you are really good you can probably make it down the hill with one ski, but why would you bother? why not just bring both skis and go indirect? i'm all about statistics and consistency, so i'd rather go skiing with both skis. all the arguments against going indirect are weak to me. i'm not saying people HAVE TO go indirect. i'm just saying it makes things easier and breeds more success if you can open indirectly. |
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| Author: | PureStrategy [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | A point of difference |
I see it all as having your own point of difference. Not many people would walk up to a girl in daylight and just say straight up that they like her. Therefore direct might work better. Whereas night game, lots of drunk idiots are yelling out 'tits out for the boys', pinching ass cheeks and blowing wolf whistles. Indirect may work better (unless she's completely plastered!). Different situations call for different types of game, and thus the directness should vary depending on the situation. |
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| Author: | Slywalker [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Quote: Good responses all around.
I see your point, I do how ever approach direct with a great attitude and lots of confidence, I haven't gotten a harsh response like that since I was an AFC. The worst thing that happens to me is that I get ignored.Here's my question to Direct gamers: If you go into a venue and just go straight up to the finest 2-set of HB10s and just tell them that you'd be kicking yourself all night if you didn't go up and say hi, and you get BLOWN THE FUCK OUT right away... You know perfectly well that a lot of people are gonna notice that - because a lot of people are gonna be looking at those girls too. Suddenly, right after your first set, you are THAT GUY who's hitting on every girl. This WILL lower your social value immediately, even if you literally don't give a shit. It will. However, if I go into the same club and talk to tons of guys and girls first, and THEN approach the HB10s indirect, then to them I'm just the friendly guy that everyone in the place seems to know and like. That puts me at a huge advantage when I approach, EVEN IF they assume that my opinion opener is a pick up line and they're having to decide whether to fuck me or not. I don't apocalypse open girls, I don't ask them to fuck me or marry me on the spot, but I make no secret of that I'm there to pick her up. And since I'm polite and straight forward, most girls who reject me do so politely! But yes, you should be careful. |
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| Author: | Visionxxxxxx [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Quote: Quote: Good responses all around.
I see your point, I do how ever approach direct with a great attitude and lots of confidence, I haven't gotten a harsh response like that since I was an AFC. The worst thing that happens to me is that I get ignored.Here's my question to Direct gamers: If you go into a venue and just go straight up to the finest 2-set of HB10s and just tell them that you'd be kicking yourself all night if you didn't go up and say hi, and you get BLOWN THE FUCK OUT right away... You know perfectly well that a lot of people are gonna notice that - because a lot of people are gonna be looking at those girls too. Suddenly, right after your first set, you are THAT GUY who's hitting on every girl. This WILL lower your social value immediately, even if you literally don't give a shit. It will. However, if I go into the same club and talk to tons of guys and girls first, and THEN approach the HB10s indirect, then to them I'm just the friendly guy that everyone in the place seems to know and like. That puts me at a huge advantage when I approach, EVEN IF they assume that my opinion opener is a pick up line and they're having to decide whether to fuck me or not. I don't apocalypse open girls, I don't ask them to fuck me or marry me on the spot, but I make no secret of that I'm there to pick her up. And since I'm polite and straight forward, most girls who reject me do so politely! But yes, you should be careful. In terms of going direct/indirect... something that has been working really well for me is walking up to her and telling her that she has the naughtiest/mischievous face on planet earth (i think most girls are 'naughtier' than they look, so i am being genuine when i say this to them). Very rarely will she reject you right off the bat....she'll normally say 'really? you think so?'...'yeah you look like a little girl thats just STOLEN something.'. if that doesnt get a smile, youre doing somethign horribly wrong. Im not a fan of canned material but there are so many places you can take this...asking her if shes really as naughty as her face suggests....if she says no, tell her you cant even spk to her anymore etc. i actually get them validating themselves to me as a naughty girl, and we all know where that is leading. 'Naughty' is the sexual aspect to the interaction, yet its ambiguous enough to talk about it directly to her. Also, when you mention naughty, what do you think she will first think of? probably her in lingerie acting out her fantasies (or something similar to this). after this opener, the cool questions like 'whats the naughtiest thing youve ever done' flow naturally....sexual tention cannot keep itself away from this! Anyway try this out and let me know how many times you get rejected. i would call this more of a direct approach rather than indirect. if a girl came up to me and told me i look like a naughty kid, i would take that as a massive IOI. its fairly direct as youre walking up to her and flirting with her from the word go. |
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| Author: | Johnny B. [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
My game has been going more and more direct but i dont see why we have to put these two " methods " against each other. You can use both or mix them together. For example you can open direct and if there is an early silent moment in some point, you can ask her opinion on something ( re- open ), continue from there and relate that opinion of hers to her personal life ( useing this as a material to develope personal guestions ) which naturally increases comfort between you two. Vice versa you can open the set with indirect way ( lower risk to get turned down ), let them know you better ( comfort ) and than build up step by step a sexual frame ( direct ) so you wont end up to the friend zone. The positive things that i see are related to indirect game: 1.Why opinion opener when dealing with bigger sets? - The reason why i use opinion openers in big sets is that if you dont open more than one girl, there is a risk that the others feel outcasted and try to save her because A) they are jealouse B) they get bored or C) they think that you are making her feel uncomfortable - Opening the whole set can reduce those things above ( ABC= Possible cock block ) - If you open the whole set, you have more where to choose from for example if your target has a BF or something or she aint showing any interest ( happened to me once when i opened a two set and found out that my target had a BF. Later on her HB 8.5 single sister entered the set and i played her right into my bedroom. If i had opened the set with direct, i might of have been blown away straight ) - So by useing something that involves all of them speaking reduces the chance of her friends trying to save her and you have more options to game with - This opener has lower risk to get rejected but on the other hand the profit may not be so instant or big. ( Opinion opener= Low risk, low profit; Direct opener= Higher risk, higher profit; Apocalypse opener= Huge risk, Huge profit ) - You can re- join the set later on if there is a new HB ( s ) involved - Girls tend to have their shield on when they go to clubs because they know that it is a place where people come to look for sex/ love / company. This is the reason why they have stronger shield than during the day where getting picked up is much more rare. So over all, opinion opener is very under the radar type of opener which doesent immitate her away and gives you an opportunity to speak with her. - It gives you the chance to talk to the girl ( especially if you are an AFC and not used to socialize with women ) and when so, it reduces your fear of approaching because the image of your last approach was good ( you managed to even exchange words with her ) and not getting rejected right away ( she turned you down straight ) - It can make a girl try to hunt YOU down because of your indirect style and when so, it lowers the risk of LMR because for her its a victory to jump bed with you due to the fact that she " won " you and worked hard for it ( Vin DiCarlo ) Direct: -Techniques which are congruent with interest. -Persisting with absolute certainty. -Qualifying from a position of power. Indirect: -Techniques congruent with disinterest. -Letting her chase you. -Takeaways and general manipulation of attraction. My Conclusion: In the end, there are as many pick up styles as there are people. Why? Because we are all humans and therefore different from each other. Everyone is a " unique product " who has embraced certain things as we grow up ( personality, character traits etc. ). So why there would be only one universal approaching style ( direct vs. indirect ) if there is no " mass product person with same character traits" ? Instead of putting these two approaching styles against each other, you can learn something new by looking this whole subject as a one big box. Dont segregate, instead observe and learn. [ Johnny B ] |
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| Author: | Visionxxxxxx [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
nice post Johnny. i agree indirect definitely has its place. In fact....when a girl opens a guy, 99% of the time its indirect! (do you have a cigarette? do you have the time? do you know what time this place closes? have you seen my friend, she was standing right here? you know the drill...). I cannot remember the last time a girl walked from the other side of the room to me and opened me with something like 'hi, im christy...'. doesnt happen too often! only if theyre smashed...or if they have extremely high status (models etc). Little story...a mate of mine got approached by Miss South Africa (probably the highest status women in South Africa, socially anyway). Opened him with something indirect....he then pretended that he didnt know who the hell she was...as a result she didnt leave him alone for the entire night, bought him drinks etc the entire night trying to validate herself, she couldnt believe she had met a guy that didnt know who she was...its like meeting Megan Fox and claiming youve never heard of her before. Anyway at the end of the night they were the only 2 people in the club and literally got kicked out by the bouncers, she was clearly ready for the taking. Problem is...HE DIDNT CLOSE BECAUSE HE HAD A GFRIEND! Depressing. |
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| Author: | Guidosaurus Wrecks [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:28 pm ] |
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Im currently playing and toying around with an indirect opener to a direct transition. I won't bother you with the routines or lines, but open her in an indirect matter then during the conversation, let her know that your interested in her. Make it seem spontaneous, but let her know. The problem with indirect is that the girls don't realize that your interested in them, and can hinder the conversation leading you into the friend zone. Let her know in the beggining, but not in the opener. My problem is I dont know what to do after, run direct game and remind her that your into her, or go indirect until she qualifies herself. ^^Need allitle more field testing haha. |
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| Author: | Visionxxxxxx [ Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Quote: Im currently playing and toying around with an indirect opener to a direct transition. I won't bother you with the routines or lines, but open her in an indirect matter then during the conversation, let her know that your interested in her. Make it seem spontaneous, but let her know. The problem with indirect is that the girls don't realize that your interested in them, and can hinder the conversation leading you into the friend zone. Let her know in the beggining, but not in the opener.
you dont need to convey directly that youre interested in her order to create attraction. flirt with her and be your usual sexual self immediately after you open her (which will keep you out of the friend zone)....but i would only show DIRECT interest as a reward to her good behavior. eg. her validating herself. if you show direct interest too soon she will realise what youre up to...ie. your opener was simply a trick to get her into conversation. this is probably why mystery preaches not to give an IOI until she has given you one (as mystery is all about indirect game). im not a fan of going indirect anymore but one powerful aspect to going indirect that you are getting her to chase you from the get-go, you are a challenge because in her eyes you are not interested in her....when going direct, you are 'chasing' her, simple as that. if you play your cards right while going direct though...sexual tension will be through the roof...and sex will happen a lot sooner as you both know where you stand, there are no games as you have made your intention clear (as Johnny pretty much implied in his post). in my opinion the ideal approach will always be to go direct and seduce the pants off her while youre both swimming in each others sexuality fom the word go (rather than having to 'fake' your interest by opening indirectly). faking anything is never good. not even freeze outs....freeze outs should not be planned strategically like most guys do....they should happen automatically due to you having such a busy and interesting life. this is genuine, and its what will be most effective at the end of the day as congruency always shines through. another thing to play with when going indirect is to give her mixed messages....this most certainly assist in creating attraction and keep you out of the friend zone.
My problem is I dont know what to do after, run direct game and remind her that your into her, or go indirect until she qualifies herself. ^^Need allitle more field testing haha. |
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