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Stop Fixing The Symptoms
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Author:  JSmooth [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Stop Fixing The Symptoms
Stop Fixing The Symptoms

We have to really stop fixing the symptoms of the problems and start fixing the problems themselves. I have been on this forum for long enough now to see the pattern that we're all in the habit of.

I'm just as guilty as the next guy who posts below me. I'd just like to see people actually getting things worked out.

Some guy gets on here needing help with a quick fix for a specific situation. We like good samaritans get on here post some helpful tips and tricks so they can get past this hurdle on their path. Then something else comes up and yet again the same poor person comes back here, and we fix another symptom.

It never really seems we get to fix the real problem itself. The underlying problem and that 800 lb elephant standing in the room that no one likes to really talk about in their posts to each other.

Sure we'll politely say to guys, "Hey man, you inner game needs some work on it." You don't see guys taking people to the side in their posts so to speak and saying, "Listen. You have some serious issues and you need help. I can patch the tire this time, but eventually you need a new tire."

There are some people on this forum that need some serious counseling from PHDs to the guy who just needs some tips on building their 'inner game.' It just seems like we're always fixing the symptom because that is what the person posting is asking us to do and not fixing the real problem.

When we do this we just encourage them to rely on us instead of themselves, which in the end is all they have to rely on. We got to get people working out the real issues and teaching them how to rely on their own skills to get them down their path.

Thanks for enduring the rant guys. I'd love suggestions as to how we can actually improve this here, not just us 'bitching' about it below.
Author:  Monkey [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:40 pm ]
Post subject: 
This has been a problem here since 2006 and likely before. Worse is the stream of similar questions that never seem to stop. Any time I see a post start with "There's this one girl..." or an equivalent, I want to hurl things at the poor boy who posted it.

Efforts have been made in the past to rectify the situation, but have never come to anything. And really, there's no stopping it. Boys come to us for a quick fix to a long problem, or they're looking for magic bullets. The nature of the Community in general makes us inviting as trouble-shooters for piss-poor relationships.
Author:  JSmooth [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:59 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
This has been a problem here since 2006 and likely before. Worse is the stream of similar questions that never seem to stop. Any time I see a post start with "There's this one girl..." or an equivalent, I want to hurl things at the poor boy who posted it.

Efforts have been made in the past to rectify the situation, but have never come to anything. And really, there's no stopping it. Boys come to us for a quick fix to a long problem, or they're looking for magic bullets. The nature of the Community in general makes us inviting as trouble-shooters for piss-poor relationships.
Agreed Monkey.

One of my favorite quotes ever is "Poor Planning equals Fuck Ups Garaunteed."

Everyone wants to take the 'red pill' enter the Matrix and be the unstoppable guy with women. Oh well society is to blame for some of that too. But damn who's to blame...

The way to fix it is in the people that are giving the advice.
Author:  SeanMessenger [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
give em the quick fix, and remind them that after they've used it and are still left wanting, there's more to learn.

for instance, you can't tell a guy not to amog. if he wants to try it, let him, and when he finds out it only gets him in trouble, he'll ask for real help.
Author:  JSmooth [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
give em the quick fix, and remind them that after they've used it and are still left wanting, there's more to learn.

for instance, you can't tell a guy not to amog. if he wants to try it, let him, and when he finds out it only gets him in trouble, he'll ask for real help.
Well put Sean.
Author:  Artax [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
What you really want to do is tell them to go out and DO IT most of the time, and the other half of the time it's a relationship question. This is a forum for guys who want to learn to meet women, not a help desk for people with relationship problems. It's no wonder most of the responses are, "dump her and meet someone else," or something similar. :?

A lot of guys have Inner Game issues, and they desperately need help in that area. It's the reason they have relationship issues, because they don't have the right mindset to make a real relationship work. It's kinda tough to tell them they need more help than you can give, but it has to be done sometimes. There is unfortunately no rhetorical equivalent to a baseball bat to their skull. :P

What really sucks is we want to help, most of us can completely understand where they're coming from because we've been through it too. Most of us can relate, so we're kinda stuck. :(
Author:  Artax [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
give em the quick fix, and remind them that after they've used it and are still left wanting, there's more to learn.

for instance, you can't tell a guy not to amog. if he wants to try it, let him, and when he finds out it only gets him in trouble, he'll ask for real help.
And Da' Man has the answer again.
Author:  flypapermeems [ Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:01 pm ]
Post subject: 
i'm glad someone posted this. i've noticed it, too, that many of the guys who come on here asking for help really don't need a pua coach, they need a psychologist.
on a forum, however, it's hard to tell the difference. pretty much people have to make their own choices as to whether they get help or not. all we can do is point them in the right direction. hopefully, though, some will learn and get the help that they need.

is it worth it if only one person turns out alright?
i think it is.
Author:  Ezo [ Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:11 am ]
Post subject: 
Jsmooth!

I really dont know what to say... Awesome! I completely agree with you! I have the feeling that all those discussions on canned/non canned material, natural/mystery method, direct/indirect, negs/no negs comes down to this post. And, we are guilty as well, we have also been discussing the symptoms to this problem.

I think there are different types of people on this forum. First there are the people who creates an account, writes one or two posts and then disappear. There are the people who try the techniques, fail, give up and disappear. There are people who try the techniques, asks for specific help, all in order to repeat the perfect canned line, get a few girls, settle down and disappear. (These are the guys who are out to get the quick fix.) There are people who go beyond this and develop new material, people who actually understand the mechanics behind PU. (These people will sooner or later realize what you are trying to tell them in this post.)

But the most common type of people are the ones who want the simple quick solution, to get maximal output from minimal input. Avoid any inconvenience! I was there myself not long ago.

Is this not the type of Pick-up that Mystery and Style are selling? (I cant believe I said that, I love those guys but still.)
Think about it, Style writes about how fast he advanced from a complete AFC to a mPUA, it is mentioned all the time in his book. He is known for having a routine for every single social situation. In the Game, he stresses that this skillset is available to anyone, it is easily learned. He stresses how simple it is. This is what people want to hear! This is what people want to believe! This is what Style and Mystery has told them (at least in the past), both of them being the worlds greatest pick-up artists, they should know... Or do they?
Well, later on, Mystery has been known to say that the Game is not about pick-up, it is about building a life, Style has also mentioned how much he has worked on his personality. BUT, people seem to disregard this, hide from it. Inner game is boring, talking to girls is fun...

We want to learn the secret of seduction in one day, without practice, without making an effort. Say this and she will be yours. Do this and she will be attracted.
Does it work? Yes, it does. Thats the danger, it does work, it does cure the symptoms. You already got your reward, why get more than that, you are better at pick-up than the AFC. I´ll give you 100.000 dollars to learn 10 words in french, sure no problems, easy money. Ok now that you have done that I will give you 1 million to learn Chinese fluently, ah too much work, I already got 100.000 dollars. This is what most people want, easy achievements...
The mystery mehod is seen as a solution when in fact it is a starterkit that cures the symptoms while you work on the real problem. Just like antidepressants, they get you up to the level where you get the strength to deal with your real issues. The problem is that people do not use it this way.

How to solve this? Well, I think the format of the forum (the new one) is a great improvement, it has some places for routines and some for inner game / attractive llifestyle / natural game... I hope this helps. At least it helps making a difference for a few people. Maybe we should add a section for realizations... ;)

I for one think that your pick-up goals, your reasons for learning, your attitude towards pick-up itself changes as you progress. There are so many times you can leave this world, so many times you can say, hey, I learned engough to change my life, I dont need the rest. But, the ones who stick with it, the ones who pass the temptation of quitting are the ones who will truly understand what this is all about.

If my advice helps the ones searching for quick and easy solutions, then so be it... I just hope it can get some of the guys to stick around long enough to get past the quick fix stage and get into the realization phase.

I think one of the solutions is what we are doing here now, we are discussing the problem. We are changing the attitude.

An AFC would say: Pick up can not be that easy.
A rAFC would say: Pick up can be easy.
A PUA would say: Pick up is easy.
A mPUA would say: No, actually it is not.

Ezo

And thanks for posting this!
Author:  JSmooth [ Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
Not a problem Ezo.

Glad to see I'm not the only one who feels like this. As Sean said we'll give them the tidbit they need with the sidenote to tell them they will be back and there is more to learn.
Author:  Superunknown [ Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'd like to tell myself I'm not one of these guys you're complaining about. But truthfully, I'm pretty sure I am. I'm as inept as they come. My love life isn't in jeopardy, it does not and has not ever existed. I know a lot of young guys probably scoff at the zen bullshit that is "Inner Game" and the idea of "building a life/finding new purpose" out of something that originally started as trying to be the first guy to get laid that night.

I don't want to be one of the guys who makes five posts and disappears, and I'd really like to keep learning throughout my life about this kind of stuff. But I'm kind of confused about Ezo's post. I haven't even read "The Game" or any seduction books, really. And yeah, I was planning on buying Ultimate Natural Game because I don't ever want to be the kind of guy who has to really on routines. I think I'm pretty quick on my feet, and UNG really does seem to promise results in a week. So are you saying reading these books will probably only hinder me in the long run, or just lead me to disappointment when I found out I won't be the new #1 seducer in the world after three days? A lot of PUA masters seem to be fairly active in the community, could I really learn all I needed to just by reading everyone's posts?

I know this post is probably what the OP was complaining about, but I can't help it. I'm tired of hating myself and I really want to change. But I'm fucking confused. At this point my post has lost all structure and I'm just rambling.
Author:  Ezo [ Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I'd like to tell myself I'm not one of these guys you're complaining about.
Hey man, I am one of these guys Im complaining about! ;)

Seriously we are not complaining, just discussing a problem, are we bad teachers if we give people what they want instead of what they need? How can we show people that the need the boring stuff when it is so much more fun to practice the fun parts?
Author:  Ezo [ Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
So are you saying reading these books will probably only hinder me in the long run, or just lead me to disappointment when I found out I won't be the new #1 seducer in the world after three days? A lot of PUA masters seem to be fairly active in the community, could I really learn all I needed to just by reading everyone's posts?
Ah, a soul to save! ;)

Sorry to confuse you man. No, I dont want you to stop reading, I dont want you to stop learning routines. I understand where you are, I know exactly how you feel, I have been there too.
You read some stuff, it promises a lot of wins and no loses and it works. It is seductive in itself. Then someone like me comes along saying that routines suck and are bad and whatnot. When I was where you are, I got scared and upset when I first heard it. I thought: What, but this is the game you have lost your way man. I was so wrong.

No what I am trying to tell you is that you need to practice all aspects of pickup if you wanna get the most out of it. Dont neglect the inner game training just because it does not give you a phonenumber this very night.

In the long run the books will help you understand social interactions and that is important. But keep in mind that the books are written by human beings, it is easy to forget that the author tells the story from his perspective. He leaves things out, things that does not fit in the book. Things that he takes for granted but that are valuable for new PUAs.

Yes, you are gonna have a lot of disappointments, we all have. But one reason for writing this slightly provocative post was to push you to overcome them. One very common thing for many PUAs is that they get good enough to close more often than not. At this point they start feeling like the game is a lie. They start feeling that they are merely repeating routines and that it is immoral to repeat precanned material that tricks a girl into liking you. And then they leave the community.
I want to show you that there is more behind this obstacle. People forget what it is that the routines mimic. They are there to mimic real social interaction at its best. If you keep going after the great depression you will have a revelation that shows you that you had the possibility to attract women all along, you just needed help to bring it out.

Most people has to pass through the canned material stage to realize this. Unfortunately that stage has an easy way out and most people never make it out on the other side but instead pack up and go home.

To learn to fake attraction can be done pretty fast but to really understand yourself and how you fit into this world and master the social skills needed. That takes time. But it is worth it!

Hope this helped!

Ezo
Author:  Superunknown [ Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ah, I think I understand what you're saying. It probably also doesn't help that it becomes so easy to some guys that there's no challenge and it's just not any fun anymore. Nothing to me is worse than when something I used to enjoy loses it's novelty. Like that scene in Wedding Crashers, right?
Author:  Ezo [ Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
Something like that...

But do not expect it to become easy. Be grateful if it does but dont be disappointed if it doesnt.
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