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The way practicing PUA should be done.
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Author:  Stetson [ Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:  The way practicing PUA should be done.
We all have heard the sentence "When you do this, the women will go CRAZY!".

And now after hearing what it was, you've most probably gone off trying it out, whatever it was, and it worked fucking GREAT.
Also you are most probably doing the same routine still today, thinking that it works nice.

Now let me remind you of something, because anyone who considers himself a PUA should be able to pick-up a girl without others canned stuff.

Canned stuff isn't the answer, its the message in them. Its there to give you a fine example of what to say, how to say it and then its explained whats in it.

Canned stuff is like:
Quote:
Somebody lets you live in a beautiful house with a garden and a fireplace. You don't actually "own" it. Now if you want your own place, you'll have to move out of it.
You can do so much more with your own canned stuff!

So let me introduce to you:

The path to Natural game

First, you must find out and learn the right attitudes and frames. You can find them from almost every PUA book out there, and they can be found from every corner of these forums too.

Now the next step is to learn and start practicing canned material. Use them in field and attract women until you think you are good enough.

Now something which might seem like impossible at first...

UNLEARN the canned stuff. Basically just stop using them before they become a habit, and if its a habit already, just grow out of it. This is done by going out in the field and doing something called improvising. Start building your own personality with your own canned lines and stuff. I fucking open a girl by just saying "Hi" to her. Its only as complicated as you make it, so make it NONE. Notice how perfect situtational openers are.

Now you most likely will become anxious. You will find yourself thinking "If I say this, will it work?!". Don't, its a waste to think such crap. Of course it works. And if for some reason it won't, congratulations, you've just learned to calibrate better.
Quote:
You just have to stop that little social ROBOT in you that names everything you do to an "opener", a "DHV", and other stuff.

I want you to UNLEARN this robot world, and go get a girl. You will notice that you still are saying things right and doing everything right, YOU ARE JUST NOT THINKING ABOUT IT AS MUCH AS BEFORE.
Have a goal of attracting (a) female(s) without the use of others canned stuff.

Now it doesn't sound so impossible after all? Knew it ;).

Now as soon as you success in that, congratulations. You have become a natural and you've just attracted a female by being all yourself.

I can tell you that the feeling of being able to be completely detached from routines IS GREAT.
Author:  QB1 [ Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
I completely disagree with you on your point of how opening with 'hi' is better than using pre-though material which is specifically designed to open and hook on sets without seeming threatning to your target. From the moment you say 'hi' to complete strangers your aim is clear: to pick that chick up. For some girls this may seem cool, they might enjoy being picked up by a good looking guy however in most cases, especially amongst HB9s and 10s who probaly have a wide social circle hence they really dont need another friend who seems to have nothing to offer them.

Here are two examples:
1.
PUA:Hi
HB:Hi
PUA:how are you?
Hb:Im good, thanks(thinking who are you, what do you want, when will you leave) What about yourself
PUA: not too bad(quickly followed by another question leading into an interrogation situation)


2.PUA:(closes his phone and turns to the nearest set) I dont have much time but I need your female opinion on something... Im moving in with 4 girls for next year at Uni...what do you think about that?
HB: (talks for pretty long)
PUA: What if a relationship occurs within the house? That would completely disrupt the dynamics of the house..
HB: bla bla bla
PUA: wow thanks for your advise, you're awesome
HB:thanks, whats your name


As you can see from a well thought opener you can continue onto a balanced convo were neither of you feels uncomfortable. Remember you're not lying you're flirting! Why should you not use tried and tested methods to get what you want. Formula 1 drivers are instructed by teams, football players have tactics to follow, basketball players have key shots which they often use; thats not saying you shouldn't become your true you once you've settled in to the conversation, express yourself then , be natural but there is a certain psyche amongst girls over guys that approach them so make sure to play the game right.

Stetson, I'm not sure whether you're clear on gaming HB9s and 10s but Id sure like to take you around London for a session. I think you raise a good point about improving calibration but that can only start happening once the girl enters an honest conversation with you open her and isolate. Calibration is non-existent amongst a set of 4.
Author:  Solomon II [ Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
King of clubs, no offense but canned material and memorised routines are designed to make newbies feel safer approaching in their early stages... it's like a safety net. They're designed to get guys approaching until they build confidence, improve their conversation skills and transitioning, and ultimately get them comfortable dealing with women in a range of scenarios. They're stepping stones on the path to true confidence and unbreakable frame and you're saying that they are the be-all and end-all, which is particularly frustrating for those of us who have spent years stepping outside our comfort zones and experimenting with other styles of game, refining our skills and developing natural flow. Lemme correct you on something else here:
Quote:
1.
PUA:Hi
HB:Hi
PUA:how are you?
Hb:Im good, thanks(thinking who are you, what do you want, when will you leave) What about yourself
PUA: not too bad(quickly followed by another question leading into an interrogation situation)
This only leads into an interrogation situation if it's all you know how to do. Guess what? It's a simple case of, "I'm good thanks, anyway..." and plowing straight into your routine. A lot of guys find it to be a bit more natural to approach and say hi first, it's polite and gets her attention just as well as any thought-out opener you might have. As far as indirect game goes, opinion openers, situational openers and so on are great if the girl is on the move because while you're delivering it you can slow down and she will stop also... but you can still say hi and ask how she's doing first! This is what I used to do in day game and it never failed.
Author:  The Doctor [ Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
Personally many of the things I say to women are canned... or to men... or to my friends... You guys really mean to say you dont have storys, jokes, witty sayings etc... that you say with consistancy? ... BTW 'Hi' is a canned opener... in fact its the most widely used canned opener in the world I would say.

Personally I'm not a big fan of indirect openers when I really want to be direct... I'll ask a girl for her opinion only if I really do want it... hell I even open with compliments sometimes... Shock! Horror! I know... but its all in the delivery and support.

With the proper delivery and support you can pretty much say anything to anyone and get away with it just fine :D
Author:  Rye Lee [ Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:13 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Personally many of the things I say to women are canned... or to men... or to my friends... You guys really mean to say you dont have storys, jokes, witty sayings etc... that you say with consistancy? ... BTW 'Hi' is a canned opener... in fact its the most widely used canned opener in the world I would say.

Personally I'm not a big fan of indirect openers when I really want to be direct... I'll ask a girl for her opinion only if I really do want it... hell I even open with compliments sometimes... Shock! Horror! I know... but its all in the delivery and support.

With the proper delivery and support you can pretty much say anything to anyone and get away with it just fine :D
This is why I've developed a term to destroy these sorts of definition issues: Pre-packaged.

We all have canned material as Doc points out; I have many stories that I've told a thousand times and that's just because they're good stories that people love to hear, that I love to tell and that trigger all sorts of great emotions. I don't however use material that other people invent (or at least so incredibly rarely as to be basically never), because I don't feel it is genuinely me and my personality. Anything that someone else has invented and that you used, is a "pre-packaged" canned material, because someone else created it, wrapped it up for you and has mass produced it, just like a can of Alphaghetti, rather than something that you picked from your own garden and vaccuum packed in your own home, like a jar of peaches from your own creative orchard.

I think this is a term that really needs to be used more often, but I have no illusions of everyone in the community suddenly picking it up. If however you are struggling to express that concept, perhaps you'd like to use it and inform other people of the meaning so that one day maybe it will be a common term and reduce much debate and confusion. :)
Author:  Tasty [ Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:32 am ]
Post subject: 
I totally agree with being natural

I met an HB8 (wonderous bod) today..
Caught her checking me out a couple times, made strong eye contact and walked over. Kind of nervous obviously - but just said
ME: Hi how're you?
HB8: good, how bout you?
ME: delicious *flirty smile*....
blah blah blah about classes and what we have thats the same
Then she drops a "yeah can I sit next to you?"
I didnt hear her at first so I paused (which was good!) then after 3-4 long seconds said "yes"

Huge confidence booster I met and flirted with two very attractive girls today!
I'm on my way to PUA.
Author:  Stetson [ Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:01 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
HB9s and 10s who probaly have a wide social circle hence they really dont need another friend who seems to have nothing to offer them.
You make it sound like you REALLY would have to offer them something. You are wrong.
Quote:
Here are two examples:
1.
PUA:Hi
HB:Hi
PUA:how are you?
Hb:Im good, thanks(thinking who are you, what do you want, when will you leave) What about yourself
PUA: not too bad(quickly followed by another question leading into an interrogation situation)
I never said you should chat that way. Do you mean that as soon as you don't have canned material you just HAVE TO START INTERVIEWING HER? You are quite a moron mate.
Quote:
Stetson, I'm not sure whether you're clear on gaming HB9s and 10s
And I'm not sure whether you are clear on my point. It seems like you have misunderstood EVERYTHING I've said.
Quote:
Personally many of the things I say to women are canned... or to men... or to my friends... You guys really mean to say you dont have storys, jokes, witty sayings etc... that you say with consistancy? ... BTW 'Hi' is a canned opener... in fact its the most widely used canned opener in the world I would say.
Cut the bullshit. I do have witty things and other stuff I say with consistancy, but thats just me being myself. I don't think of them as "canned" stuff because ITS ME. You just have to stop that little social ROBOT in you that names everything you do to an "opener, a "DHV", and other stuff.

I want you to UNLEARN this robot world, and go get a girl. You will notice that you still are saying things right and doing everything right, YOU ARE JUST NOT THINKING ABOUT IT AS MUCH AS BEFORE.

Attracting a girl by following what I said is alot more cooler than you can imagine. Its a HUGE confidence builder. Its you being yourself and her being attracted to it.

It makes you step in a zone where you don't have to think what to say to be able to say it right.
Author:  ace_of_spades [ Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
I've argued this specific subject far beyond pointlessness, but I just wanna throw something in.

Swinggcat's 'Demistyfying Charisma' is a very powerful insight into the subject of natural vs. canned, and if this subject is of interest to anyone, I strongly recommend you familiarize yourself with it.

That being said, I'll start with the base of my argumentt: Anyone who claims to use no canned material whatsoever is full of shit

This is a strong statement, so I'll explain what I mean by 'canned'

If you observe a charismatic person in a social setting, you'll notice that this person frequently uses the same lines while interacting with different groups of people. It may be a joke, a specific response to something people say frequently ('are you gay?', 'why do you wear this necklace?' etc.) or a story they like telling about something that happened to them earlier this week. Notice that at no point is this person lying: the stories and responses are all true, it's just that they are recurrent in social interactions. This is what I consider 'canned' and ALL charismatic people do it without being consciously aware of it. I even consider 'Hi' a canned line, simply because it's RECURRENT. I'll use an example from 2 days ago:

[Ace-noticing an interesting piece of HBs attire] There's something I want to ask you: what is it with your dress/your hair/your shoes?
[HB] Well, I thought the shoes would go well with the dress/I thought it would be cool to have a streak of green hair to go along with the dress.
[Ace-smiling] Oh, you thought that, did you?

The last bit is something I consider a 'canned' line since it's my standard response to qualification starting with 'I thought...'

At the same time, rolling exclusively on 'canned' material is impossible since it doesn't allow for a 2-way interaction. Hell, I use canned material but at the same time I'm comfortable improvising. All of my stories, true though they are, make me sick simply because I've regurgitated them hundreds of times. They demonstrate my personality in a consistent way, they get the sets hooked, they get the job done far more consistently than any 'natural' sarge I've ever tired. At the same time, the parts of a sarge where I improvise are the parts I enjoy most, simply because I'm finding out about another human being.

So what I'm trying to strain out here is that every pickup artist worth his salt mixes natural and canned. If you have a prepared sarge-plan of a 1-hour interaction you'll fail miserably because pickup is a 2-way street and not allowing for any degree of spontaneity will have you crashing and burning like an Italian fighter pilot. At the same time, if you're making a point of never repeating anything you've ever said at any arbitrary point in the past, you're wasting a valuable asset. I admit that improvising is fun, but at times trying to come up with an original and witty response while you have two perfectly good canned lines that have worked wonders in the past is making pickup more difficult for yourself. And that's not what pickup is, you don't get extra points for purposefully shooting yourself in the kneecaps. What's next? 'Im gonna sarge this HB using sign language, but I'll be hopping on my right leg while my buddy lobs grenades over my head'. It just seems slightly pointless to me.

Bottom line: I don't get natural game. I understand that when you're improvising it's useful to have the right mindset and frame and there's no denying that, but I just fail to see the point of trying to come up with a better respose to

'I thought this necklace would go with my belt'

when I have a perfectly good canned response up my sleeve.

Perhaps this whole thing is just a misunderstanding of the term 'canned' in which case this post was pointless, but if I ever get somebody to explain to me why 'natural' game is so much better and why they hate 'canned' material like it was a cross-breed between Hitler and Skeletor, I'll be able to die an enlightened man.

Edit: I read Rye's post and forgot about it. Pre-packaged STORIES are shit to the point where I won't waste time proving it, pre-packaged IVDs (derivatives of the cube and best friends test) are AWESOME.

I'll stick to 'canned' as your OWN memorized material including IVDs plus standard one-liner responses to recurring situations.

Also, Stetson, calling someone a 'moron' is below your level, so I'll attribute it to you not paying attention to what you were writing because you were getting a blowjob from two Finnish blondes while typing ;-). Just don't do it again.
Author:  QB1 [ Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Anyone who claims to use no canned material whatsoever is full of shit
Amen to a guy from the same branch as I. Ace really cleared some of the issues. Noone comes up with different shit every time he opens a set or negs a target. The unique and personal(natural) stuff comes after isolation where you've earnt your chance to be yourself. Anyways Stetson I didnt mean to offend you however your claim that you dont need to have anything special to game HB10s is off point. Are you telling me that to get laid by the most beautiful women in the world it doesnt matter who you are or how you game as long as you are yourself? Trust me, in fact dont trust me, ask your hottest friend whether she would give any average looking guy a chance if he didn't seem to be different from the rest- this is what canned game allows you to do, be different from the rest. The PUA does what everyone else doesn't.


And Stetson there's no need to get heated, you opened the discussion asking for opinions and I gave mine soooo...
Author:  QB1 [ Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
King of clubs, no offense but canned material and memorised routines are designed to make newbies feel safer approaching in their early stages... it's like a safety net. They're designed to get guys approaching until they build confidence, improve their conversation skills and transitioning, and ultimately get them comfortable dealing with women in a range of scenarios. They're stepping stones on the path to true confidence and unbreakable frame and you're saying that they are the be-all and end-all, which is particularly frustrating for those of us who have spent years stepping outside our comfort zones and experimenting with other styles of game, refining our skills and developing natural flow. Lemme correct you on something else here:
Quote:
1.
PUA:Hi
HB:Hi
PUA:how are you?
Hb:Im good, thanks(thinking who are you, what do you want, when will you leave) What about yourself
PUA: not too bad(quickly followed by another question leading into an interrogation situation)
This only leads into an interrogation situation if it's all you know how to do. Guess what? It's a simple case of, "I'm good thanks, anyway..." and plowing straight into your routine. A lot of guys find it to be a bit more natural to approach and say hi first, it's polite and gets her attention just as well as any thought-out opener you might have. As far as indirect game goes, opinion openers, situational openers and so on are great if the girl is on the move because while you're delivering it you can slow down and she will stop also... but you can still say hi and ask how she's doing first! This is what I used to do in day game and it never failed.

Into what routine do you 'plow straight on to'? Would it be something you just thought of on the spot? cos if not and you have used that routine before then it is 'canned' or 'pre-packaged' as you have developed and applied it multiple times...

I personally find that alot of stuff which I've come up with and I use on the regular to open sets works consistenly thus should I abandon it? Of course not! Then once the set is open and hooked I become my natural self which is enough to get me what I want.[/b]
Author:  trippinT [ Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
i work on my natural game, but i also use my canned shit when i wanna get fuck. I say, prepare for the worst, but why fix something that aint broken.
Author:  ace_of_spades [ Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
2 simple points: what King of Clubs (love the pun by the way buddy :D) and I are both arguing is that there is a time and place for natural and routine-based game. The skill comes from determining which one comes where, I don't want to simplify it to: 'routine based until comfort, then natural from then on in' because that's not the case, but if you're smart and experienced, you'll know what I'm talking about. I know of no good PUA who rolls exclusively on routines nor one that never uses a recurrent line. It's more of a theoretical divide than a practical one, so I'm not gonna KJ around here splitting hairs.

Another point: 'its not lying; its flirting' is open to interpretation. It's one thing to flirtatiously say 'if I werent gay...' or 'I hate you' (which technically is a lie) and a compeletely different thing to say 'I am a secret-agent cowboy spaceman millionaire' or something that you think will make you look cooler with a straight face, expecting the girl to believe you. I don't think this particular exaggeration helped the argument, but you get the point; and for those of you who are lobotomy patients, it's a different thing to lie about being a member of an aristocratic family or having tons of cash (it's bad).

The whole 'being genuine' thing just seems to be another tool in the arsenal of 'natural game' extremists who accuse anyone rolling on routines of being a deceitful cunt.

I mean, what the hell is 'being genuine' anyway? I thought the whole point of pickup was developing a slightly different personality and changing those aspects of it that piss you off, not embracing your social retardedness and a tendency to make weird esoteric jokes about abortion that make for awkward situations and proudly announcing: 'this is me, I am being genuine while making inappropriate jokes, now love me because I have a good frame' or whatever terminology 'natural game' fanatics use to justify a lack of solid methodology or structure. It seems to me like we're bordering on those psychobabble self-help books for single mothers in their forties that tell them to embrace their inner goddess (see RSD on 'getting into the woooo!' and 'not breaking the nimbus').

'Being genuine' is an abstract statement. Personality is something you're free to define for yourself. Are you guys telling me that as soon as somebody changes a single aspect of their personality, they stop 'being genuine' and that is for some reason 'bad'?

Well, my advice is as follows.If there's a part of your personality that pisses you off, change it. You're not a big fan of smiling? Fuck you. You're not much of a talker and 'this is who you are'? I have no sympathy for you unless you try to change that. And if anyone comes in here telling me about 'embracing the inner core' or some other fancy term from KJland they'll earn a very hard kick in the shins ;-).

I dislike being a negative bitch, but in fairness, the movement of pro-genuine, natural non-scripted non-structured organic bio-degradable environment-friendly game annoys me, especially when newbies trying to up their skills with women are told that all they need to do is access their 'woooo' and 'never, ever break the nimbus' and they'll be the next Hugh Hefner. Speaking of which, how is that guy doing? :D

So, to compensate for the negative ranty and rather serious vibe of this post: boingo, boingo, knickers, jelly.

And yes, I've used that before ;-)
Author:  Stetson [ Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
Let me determine my 'canned' for you.
Quote:
We all have heard the sentence "When you do this, the women will go CRAZY!"
Now you doing that same to different women what the other guy did and told you, thats is my definition for 'canned'.

This topic is NOT about "You will not use any canned stuff, because all you need is the right state of focus."

This topic is about teaching you what PUA is about and then forcing yourself to learn it (its faster), basically:

First learn to use canned lines and other stuff.
Now, what I'm saying is that you need to grow out of them to be able to understand what PUA is about.

You see, on most cases the newbies in PUA will feel like they are living in a fake reality, all they say are mostly canned and all they do is mostly canned too. They feel like living in a fake reality, and it really IS like living in a fake reality. You have to learn and get used to that fake reality.

Now take that reality and push it away:
Quote:
UNLEARN the canned stuff. Basically just stop using them before they become a habit, and if its a habit already, just grow out of it. This is done by going out in the field and doing something called improvising. I fucking open a girl by just saying "Hi" to her. Its only as complicated as you make it, so make it NONE. Notice how perfect situtational openers are.
Now follow the rest of the steps.

Result, you are a PUA with the sense of being natural.

Perfect.
Author:  The Doctor [ Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Quote:
Personally many of the things I say to women are canned... or to men... or to my friends... You guys really mean to say you dont have storys, jokes, witty sayings etc... that you say with consistancy? ... BTW 'Hi' is a canned opener... in fact its the most widely used canned opener in the world I would say.
Cut the bullshit. I do have witty things and other stuff I say with consistancy, but thats just me being myself. I don't think of them as "canned" stuff because ITS ME. You just have to stop that little social ROBOT in you that names everything you do to an "opener, a "DHV", and other stuff.

I want you to UNLEARN this robot world, and go get a girl. You will notice that you still are saying things right and doing everything right, YOU ARE JUST NOT THINKING ABOUT IT AS MUCH AS BEFORE.

Attracting a girl by following what I said is alot more cooler than you can imagine. Its a HUGE confidence builder. Its you being yourself and her being attracted to it.

It makes you step in a zone where you don't have to think what to say to be able to say it right.
Your message is obnoxiously close minded and ignorant... Your spitting out the same tired rabble that so many rAFCs preach once they finally get over asking for a females perspective on flossing...

Your preaching at me to stop being a robot and thinking about doing what? The M3 model? I'm whats known as a natural... I'm in the community to work together with other men to build a path to self improvement and a fuller understanding of the fairer sex.

I apprectiate your enthusiasm for a singly focused approach... however I must advise that a closed mind is the most expensive thing you can ever own.
Author:  Stetson [ Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:04 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Your message is obnoxiously close minded and ignorant... Your spitting out the same tired rabble that so many rAFCs preach once they finally get over asking for a females perspective on flossing...
rAFC with a floss, rrrrright.

My message is this, you first learn canned material and practice it until its deep in your head.

Now we want you detached from it, which opens your eyes to the fact that "I just attracted a girl by being myself."

We want to kill that "social robot" in you and make you a "social human being".

Wanna still argue about it? Cool, me too.
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