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Why does this PUA crap works?
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Author:  Mr. Amador [ Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:48 am ]
Post subject:  Why does this PUA crap works?
Ok, I've been reading some stuff when I can, anything interesting that relates to PU. So these are my findings.

Why we humans are so different?. Look at the typical animal, the dog, dogs just have sex when there's a chance of making puppies, we humans dont. Dogs also have sex in front of everybody, we take care of making it private. Also, our women have a hidden fertile period, unlike other female animals that display it in the most visible way possible.

You might say: "That's cause animals are stupid and we humans are smart" But animals are more efficient haveing babies then we are, we waste a lot of effort having purposeless sex.

Acording to some scientists, we are this way because all that behaviors conduce us to the best evolutionary path. A human bay cant take care of himself until age 10 at least, so he needs care from both parents to survive. The best path is the one on wich we males, stick aroud females to protect them and take care of the kids. Notice that I didnt mention feeding them, male hunters in traditional societies dont contribute much to the actual nutritional needs of his family, cause hunting requires a lot of effort and you dont get food every day, even if when you do get it its a big buffalo, thats just one day for every ten of empty hands.

So, how get advantage of all this stuff to improve our game? (LOL, this is the only place I can say stuff like that without being called "a jerk")

First Im gonna paste some stuff from wikipedia to explain a point:

"Within evolutionary biology, signalling theory refers to a body of theoretical work examining communication between individuals. The central question is when animals with conflicting interests should be expected to communicate "honestly". Mathematical models in which organisms signal their condition to other individuals as part of an evolutionarily stable strategy are the principal form of research in this field."

"conflicting interests"...that means that we wanna get laid with the best avaliable girl, and the girls want to get laid with the best avaliable guy.

So when a peacock gets the bigest tail he gets the ladies, right? Thats saying "Whats up baby, look at my genes, I'll make good babies, My tails is so big" And he gets the bird. But what about peacocks having big tails but having less than optimal genes? That would be lying, a human translation would be: "He is not rich, he just happens to have a porsche, but its a rental". There is a huge debate about this, and since we are not in it for biology's sake; I'll just say this: Its not really important if you are a high value individual, What is important is to show all the signals a high value individual shows.

(again, no one here calls me a jerk for saying that...I mean, Im talking about manipulation here)

That might sound a bit selfish, but here's my tip for the day:

If you are a high value individual in your own eyes, It doesnt matters what other people thinks.

(Thats why I dont feel guilty for making those "jerk" comments...If I think I'm high value I wont be lying or tricking anyone, if you feel guilty using this PUA stuff, remember that little mantra of mine)

Back to the track, women are hardwired to be attracted to a guy that can protect her and her babies, give the kids an education on how not getting killed and earn a living (mainly the boys),and give her and the kids status in the community. Thats why she haves all those wierd sexual behaviors mentioned above, the hidden ovulation, and having sex in private, all that stuff is designed to make the dude stick arount the girl...so he can also take care of the kids. Women fight with fists and nails to keep a high value individual, why?.

Ok, definition of high value: When something is scarce, and people wants it, it has high value. So every girl wants Brad pitt, but there's only one of them. Can you see the power our buddy brad has?.

So if she sees an individual of value, she is going to do her best to keep the guy around. Thats why roll offs, negs, and jelousy plotlines work, she gets that we might just wander off, so she better starts working to get us.

Women dont have a problem getting a man cause there's a ugly guy for every ugly chick, they have a problem getting a high value one, cause there are so few of us (yeah, I'm a high value guy, and if you wanna have good inner game some day, you better start thinking you are as good as brad pitt today. Im a step ahead, I know Im better that Brad Pitt :P ).

So, where were we? oh, right, signalling theory. Most of the stuff on the PUA universe talk about signals, to communicate to the girl that you are high value. (AMOG, DHVs, Peacocking.....and all that shit). But down to the basics, the important stuff to get a girl is to convey that:

1) You can protect and take care of she and the kids

2) You can teach survival and how to get a living to kids (with earn a living, in the acient times it meant teach to hunt, today it means how to be competitive)

3) Giving status to the family.

Im still thinking about it and reading some other stuff. When I discover some new stuff I'll post it here....
Author:  Fiction dTAJIr8v [ Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why does this PUA crap works?
Quote:
Acording to some scientists, we are this way because all that behaviors conduce us to the best evolutionary path.
This is incorrect. Much in human development is the result of what the the eminent biologist Stephen Gould termed "evolutionary "spandrels". A physical example of this would be like the appendix, which has no apparent necessary function (people can live at equal levels of functioning without it) and it is indeed negatively selected--it frequently becomes infected which often results in death without proper medical SPAM, and it's growth an maintenance requires a good deal of energy that could be used for more useful things.

While much of our development biologically is selected for, there is a significant amount that is not. Regarding our behavioral inclinations the likelihood of spandrels are almost undoubtedly higher.

So, while it is fair to say that some or even arguably most (depending on what camp you fall into) are influenced by evolution, it is a staggering leap to say that ALL are.

Moral of the story--don't look for every human behavior to have an evolutionary explanation.

On a side note--the typos made it very difficult to read. This was a decent post content-wise, but I found all the spelling errors and occasional broken sentences very distracting.
Author:  Waffle [ Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why does this PUA crap works?
Quote:

Moral of the story--don't look for every human behavior to have an evolutionary explanation.
Eye brows and the male nipple... both useless. :lol:
Author:  jurupa [ Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
So, how get advantage of all this stuff to improve our game? (LOL, this is the only place I can say stuff like that without being called "a jerk")
I give ya a better answer than your long winded one; social engineering. If you look at the very basics of what the whole PUA thing is and look at what social engineering is, you would see that PUA is really a way to go about social engineering.
Quote:
Its not really important if you are a high value individual, What is important is to show all the signals a high value individual shows.
At the same time you have to watch how high of a higher value you display because if you show a level that is well above you and you can not hold it, its going to bite you in the ass.

Quote:
Back to the track, women are hardwired to be attracted to a guy that can protect her and her babies, give the kids an education on how not getting killed and earn a living (mainly the boys),and give her and the kids status in the community. Thats why she haves all those wierd sexual behaviors mentioned above, the hidden ovulation, and having sex in private, all that stuff is designed to make the dude stick arount the girl...so he can also take care of the kids. Women fight with fists and nails to keep a high value individual, why?.
You only listed some of the things women are attracted to in a guy. You forgot a guy to provide her things, like a house, money, food etc. As well emotional stability. As well as money if you live around a heavy populated area of gold diggers and/or women that care more about money and nothing else.
Quote:
So if she sees an individual of value, she is going to do her best to keep the guy around. Thats why roll offs, negs, and jelousy plotlines work, she gets that we might just wander off, so she better starts working to get us.
Last I check things like negs, roll off etc where tools of the "trade". They themselves don't display higher levels to the girl. What you say and how you socialize does.
Quote:
Women dont have a problem getting a man cause there's a ugly guy for every ugly chick, they have a problem getting a high value one, cause there are so few of us (yeah, I'm a high value guy, and if you wanna have good inner game some day, you better start thinking you are as good as brad pitt today. Im a step ahead, I know Im better that Brad Pitt :P ).
The thing that amazes me is that women out number men 2 to 1 in the world population and yet women have their pickings of the men. Tho I have use this knowledge to my advantage at times in getting girls.
Quote:
So, where were we? oh, right, signalling theory. Most of the stuff on the PUA universe talk about signals, to communicate to the girl that you are high value. (AMOG, DHVs, Peacocking.....and all that shit). But down to the basics, the important stuff to get a girl is to convey that:

1) You can protect and take care of she and the kids

2) You can teach survival and how to get a living to kids (with earn a living, in the acient times it meant teach to hunt, today it means how to be competitive)

3) Giving status to the family.

Im still thinking about it and reading some other stuff. When I discover some new stuff I'll post it here....
That is a good list if you are looking for a girl to settle down with and marry. But for those guys that don't want to settle down heres my list:

1) Don't give a shit

Its amazing what happens when stop caring what the girl thinks and worrying about saying the right things to get her.
Author:  Bidyah [ Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
1) Don't give a shit
haha, that's true.

Btw. Dude, you're a jerk. Why even bother comparing animal behavior with our behavior. I mean our behavior is not quite the same...

For the DHV's you are totally right about DHV's, but still I have gotten plenty of ladies without ever having to DHV...

Much more sometimes it's a DHV not to DHV. ;)
Author:  Brad [ Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Much more sometimes it's a DHV not to DHV. ;)
As with C&F and negs, you have to calibrate your DHV spikes, otherwise they won't be noticed or you’ll come across as bragging. For instance:

HB: So, what do you do then?
Me: (Delay) Oh, was you talking to me? (With smile)
Me: I serve thousands of burgers in a famous restaurant, often with fries. Apart from that, I run a few web development teams. But, serving the burgers is great fun because you get to meet lots of wackos every day… (stare at HB with smile)

Notice the little DHV spike in the C&F response.
Author:  Soma [ Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Quote:

Btw. Dude, you're a jerk. Why even bother comparing animal behavior with our behavior. I mean our behavior is not quite the same...
So many things wrong with this statement... You must know that chimpanzees are more than 99% genetically identical to humans. And when considering the less genetically similar animals, it is still useful to compare them with humans because they reveal how much different we are from the majority of the living organisms on earth, which all evolved from similar primordial origins. It's not how we're the same, but how we're DIFFERENT that makes such comparisons worthwhile.
Author:  Fiction dTAJIr8v [ Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
So many things wrong with this statement... You must know that chimpanzees are more than 99% genetically identical to humans. And when considering the less genetically similar animals, it is still useful to compare them with humans because they reveal how much different we are from the majority of the living organisms on earth, which all evolved from similar primordial origins. It's not how we're the same, but how we're DIFFERENT that makes such comparisons worthwhile.
I think he was joking.
Author:  Rome0 [ Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why does this PUA crap works?
Quote:
Quote:

Moral of the story--don't look for every human behavior to have an evolutionary explanation.
Eye brows and the male nipple... both useless. :lol:
You dont know how evolution works. They might have been useful at some point and if they are not any more that just means that there is not enough selection strength to remove such things from humans (but eventually they will disappear). And i would personally say that all behaviour is rooted in biology.
Author:  Fiction dTAJIr8v [ Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:18 am ]
Post subject: 
^^^

Yes, this is correct. In fact, my example of the appendix is probably not a good example of a spandrel, but rather a possible vestigial organ. In any event, it is probably best to let Gould himself explain it.

Here is the original paper:

The Spandrels of San Marco and the Panglossian Paradigm: A Critique of the Adaptationist Programme
http://ethomas.web.wesleyan.edu/wescour ... drels.html


I should also note that Gould has a deep-seated hatred for people trying to extend adaptationist explanations too far, and this stance has gotten him for than a few enemies. Frankly, I think he frequently goes too far. But in any case, he has some serious and important ideas to consider.
Author:  Bidyah [ Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
Soma - whatever, what you said is besides the point. I was kidding, but I don't see the point of comparing what works with women with the animal kingdom. How is comparing differences going to get me laid, or find my dream girl? Anyway, I'll be happy to discuss this ontopic somewhere else. ;)
Quote:
Notice the little DHV spike in the C&F response.
DLV, with actual information. THat's cool, but I'm afraid that'll come off as showing off. I just tell them what I do straight up... as long as you don't make it a big deal it's not bragging, I think. ;)
Author:  Brad [ Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:58 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
DLV, with actual information. THat's cool, but I'm afraid that'll come off as showing off. I just tell them what I do straight up... as long as you don't make it a big deal it's not bragging, I think. ;)
It don't and wont as long as it's subtle (field tested many, many times). During the attraction phase, you want to be fun and challenging!
Author:  Ka [ Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why does this PUA crap works?
Quote:
Quote:

Moral of the story--don't look for every human behavior to have an evolutionary explanation.
Eye brows and the male nipple... both useless. :lol:
The male nipple has a use...it makes us look cool...and for few guys so do eye brows!

At one point the apendix had a function im sure, as did the tonsils.

Things like this that we NO LONGER have a need for just havent had time to be weeded out.

Im beginning to wonder why i NEED so much chest hair, or any at all for that matter.
Author:  Fiction dTAJIr8v [ Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I don't see the point of comparing what works with women with the animal kingdom. How is comparing differences going to get me laid, or find my dream girl? Anyway, I'll be happy to discuss this ontopic somewhere else. ;)
This is quite on topic--it is exactly the issues that he was discussing in the OP.

Anywho, understanding evolutionary biology is important like any other meta-theory of psychology...it gives a framework to think about the theory and how things develop. Evolutionary psychology roots itself in biology, which makes the principles much more lasting and durable cross culturally and over time.

For you, it gives a good way of viewing things and considering how women will respond to them. Of course, you could just learn the rules and what to do, but that makes you reliant on the rule-makers, rather than being able to come up with your own principles. I like to understand the conceptual framework that I work with, so I can try to think about the theory by myself.
Quote:
The male nipple has a use...it makes us look cool...and for few guys so do eye brows!

At one point the apendix had a function im sure, as did the tonsils.

Things like this that we NO LONGER have a need for just havent had time to be weeded out.
In some cases, yes. However, read the paper I linked regarding spandrels. My example was a poor one, but the paper does an excellent job. Some have even postulated that consciousness itself (Noam Chomsky being one of the stronger proponents, even though Chomsky is crazy) is a spandrel.

The important thing to remember is that while many features of our bodies and behaviors have an evolutionary origin, it is not necessarily the case that all do (though more and more have developed plausible evolutionary explanations).
Author:  Mr. Amador [ Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:01 pm ]
Post subject: 
Sorry about the typos. I forgot to correct it.

I don't think that all behaviors have an evolutionary root. But some of them, specially sexual related ones, have been built through natural selection. I didn't had enough time to read Gould's paper, but in my opinion, evolution involves a great deal of luck, so if the appendix is there, its because its not a great risk yet.

Waffle mentioned the futility of male nipples, In Why Is Sex Fun?, Jared Diamond reports of male and female cancer patients being treated with estrogen who proceeded to lactate when injected with prolactin, and suggests that mechanical stimulation of male breasts, by releasing prolactin, could result in lactation. He also mentions teenage boys lactating after self stimulation of their nipples. Wierd.....

So why men don't breast feed her children? Because there is no evolutionary advantage on doing so. If you are interested on the specifics of it, read the book. (Its a long explanation)

About eyebrows, when I play any sport on a sunny day, my head sweats, and my eyebrows keep the sweat off my eyes.

So, jurupa:
Quote:
At the same time you have to watch how high of a higher value you display because if you show a level that is well above you and you
can not hold it, its going to bite you in the ass
That is the whole point. If you have an expensive car, an expensive suit, a model on your arm, and a bunch of people following you around taking pictures of you; it doesn't matters if you are the dumbest man alive, people will respond to the signals you display (at least initially).

Eventually its going to bite your ass, but the signals did a fine job getting people interested.

Is sad how the smartest people alive is often ignored, and alienated. If you are smart you have value, but if you don't have signals to display your value, your brains wont help you much in a social setting.
Quote:
That is a good list if you are looking for a girl to settle down with and marry. But for those guys that don't want to settle down heres my list:

1) Don't give a shit
But women are evolutionary hardwired to seek the traits of a "husband". If you don give a shit about her, what does that communicates?

"Hey, I'm better than you, so I don't need you"

Since a woman wants a guy that provides social status, any guy with higher perceived value will be appealing to her. Higher value males are scarce, so she is going to be very interested, and will invest a lot to keep the guy around. That is why the jerk attitude works.

Just think about it, If you were a girl living in a tribe, the AMOG would be the best choice of husband.

Just look at all the soap opera kind of stud, he always takes care of the girl, he is a nice guy, probably his family owns a big company....etc.

He is quite a catch isn't he? He Would make a perfect husband. I mean, even rock stars (Think of the guys from Poison) would make good husbands, no one would mess with the kids of those barbarian like characters. The crazy lifestyle means, endurance, resources to maintain it , and status. They would be good husbands too, at least for pre-urban times.

In short, I didn't meant to say that being the ideal of a good husband. Its just that women respond to the signals a good husband displays, even if she doesn't plans to marry him (or even have sex with him).

About DHVs, when you DHV you aren't DHVing by giving the girl information. "Hey whats up babe? I bought a Mercedes yesterday. Wanna check out the back seat?" That would be bragging (and stupid). What I do, and what DHVs are supposed to do (at least in my game) is to convey attractive traits indirectly...to her emotional circuits. My DHV stories involve protecting loved ones, being a leader, and being passionate about life. What I have and what I do is not as important as the signals I'm sending (those get me the initial attraction). To seal the deal I just show her that I'm not just another guy, I'm different, through those stories, or by other means (If I don't have much time).
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