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| Women Evolved to be Catty? https://www.pick-up-artist-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=173750 |
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| Author: | Chief [ Fri Jan 03, 2014 10:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Women Evolved to be Catty? |
Here's an interesting article I found today: Source: http://www.livescience.com/40717-indire ... works.html Quote: The rumor spreading, shunning and backstabbing of "mean girls" may be a relatively accurate picture of women's social interactions, one researcher says.
I always thought that the "sexual policing" was a direct byproduct of the patriarchal hegemony - Men wanted to commoditize women's sexuality in order to exercise male dominance and to keep women oppressed. Some stuff I've noticed, including this article, seem to suggest otherwise, that women create their own sexual double standards in order to beat out their competition.Though both men and women use such indirect aggression in relationships, women use backbiting to demoralize competition and take sexual rivals out of the picture, one researcher argues in a review article detailed today (Oct. 27) in the journal Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B. "Women do compete, and they can compete quite fiercely with one another," said Tracy Vaillancourt, the paper's author and a psychology professor at the University of Ottawa in Canada. "The form it typically takes is indirect aggression, because it has a low cost: The person [making the attack] doesn't get injured. Oftentimes, the person's motives aren't detected, and yet it still inflicts harm against the person they're aggressing against." Mean girls Anyone who has braved the halls of middle school has seen mean girl behavior firsthand. And across many different cultures, researchers have found that girls rely mostly on indirect aggression rather than physical conflict or overt aggression, which men use more frequently. That led Vaillancourt to hypothesize that the behavior is rooted in humans' evolutionary past. But why would sneaky meanness have become so ingrained in the female repertoire? In short, because mean girl aggression works so well. Because of women's role in childbearing and rearing, they are less expendable than men and couldn't risk injury by settling disputes with their fists, said Anne Campbell, an evolutionary psychologist at Durham University in the United Kingdom, who was not involved in the work. Instead, social exclusion and talking behind someone's back allowed women to work out conflicts without endangering their bodies. Backbiting and gossiping aren't unique to women, though. "There is virtually no sex difference in indirect aggression," Campbell told LiveScience. "By the time you get to adulthood, particularly in work situations, men use this, too." But these attacks are more powerful weapons against women, who, in the evolutionary past, depended on each other to raise children; so shunning could severely hurt a woman and her children's survival odds. As a result, women may have evolved to be exquisitely attuned to such slights, Vaillancourt speculates. Not only does such cattiness make the targeted women too sad and anxious to compete in the sexual market, some studies suggest it can make men find rivals less attractive — provided the badmouthing comes from a cute woman, Vaillancourt said. Sexual policing Women often punish perceived sexual transgressions, Vaillancourt said. Studies in dozens of countries have found that women use indirect aggression against other women for being "too sexually available," Vaillancourt said. "It's women who suppress other women's sexuality," because if sex is a resource, then more sexually promiscuous women lower the price of it, Vaillancourt told LiveScience. One way to avoid the most destructive effects of girls' indirect aggression is to make sexual policing less powerful, Campbell said. "We want to achieve a situation where that accusation [of promiscuity] had no power, where we don't have that double sexual standard," Campbell said. "But how we get there, I don't know." And women don't compete over things they don't value, Vaillancourt said. So women who put less emphasis on dating, or women who are past their sexual peak, are less likely to engage in mean girl behavior (at least over men). I think it might look like women created and perpetuated their own sexual double standards, but to me it seems like they've simply adapted to using a weapon the patriarchy had initially created. How would women know to slut-shame if men hadn't jealously created the concept of a "slut" in the first place? Thoughts? Please be mindful the new forum rule added on Jan 2nd, 2014 for all discussion on this site from here on out: the-forum-rules-vt25918.html |
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| Author: | DdOS [ Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Women Evolved to be Catty? |
What came first, chicken or an egg? I think people have wrong idea about patriarchy, truth is people tried every social form, from matriarchy to equality to patriarchy and the last one just turned out best for everybody, it was the most progressive society available SPAM. It is easy for us to judge now that our bellies are full and we are not in constant danger of being eaten but our ancestors lived in a lot less rosy world. While patriarchy may look unfair by today standards we must remember that everything we have we owe to patriarchy, the matriarchal societies that existed unanimously failed. That is because of a fact that men evolved with greater capacity to put the interest of a group in front of their own interest, that is why men primarily go to war or work dangerous jobs. Women on the other hand, just like in this article are very good at pretending they care for common interest but they will always put themselves and their children in the first place, which is totally reasonable but too self centered to make for a good leadership. And while there are always exceptions to every rule believing that Quote: they've simply adapted to using a weapon the patriarchy had initially created. because Quote: How would women know to slut-shame if men hadn't jealously created the concept of a "slut" in the first place? makes the wrong assumption that women were somehow innocent from the start and have only learned to be mean from evil dirty men, which is putting pussy on a pedestal all over again.
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| Author: | Chief [ Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Women Evolved to be Catty? |
Quote: What came first, chicken or an egg? I think people have wrong idea about patriarchy, truth is people tried every social form, from matriarchy to equality to patriarchy and the last one just turned out best for everybody, it was the most progressive society available SPAM. It is easy for us to judge now that our bellies are full and we are not in constant danger of being eaten but our ancestors lived in a lot less rosy world. While patriarchy may look unfair by today standards we must remember that everything we have we owe to patriarchy, the matriarchal societies that existed unanimously failed. That is because of a fact that men evolved with greater capacity to put the interest of a group in front of their own interest, that is why men primarily go to war or work dangerous jobs. Women on the other hand, just like in this article are very good at pretending they care for common interest but they will always put themselves and their children in the first place, which is totally reasonable but too self centered to make for a good leadership. And while there are always exceptions to every rule believing that
I agree with a good part of what you have said, but you're communicating some underlying beliefs that are flat out useless to have.
Quote: they've simply adapted to using a weapon the patriarchy had initially created. because Quote: How would women know to slut-shame if men hadn't jealously created the concept of a "slut" in the first place? makes the wrong assumption that women were somehow innocent from the start and have only learned to be mean from evil dirty men, which is putting pussy on a pedestal all over again.Quote: everything we have we owe to patriarchy
Semantically, I agree that the good stuff we have in society is in large part due to the progress we made with patriarchy in the past, but we don't "owe" it anything, especially if the system needs changing to progress humanity even further. And the fact of the matter is that the system, too, needs to evolve along with us. The group in power shouldn't get too comfortable being on top for too long or else they forget what life is like for everyone else. That's why communism failed.We probably don't need a dramatic overhaul of the patriarchy but we need to start correcting some of our beliefs, like how a lot of us believe we "owe" it to patriarchy by maintaining the old order. Quote: ...the wrong assumption that women were somehow innocent from the start and have only learned to be mean from evil dirty men, which is putting pussy on a pedestal all over again.
On the flip side, a lot of guys make the wrong assumption that women are inherently guilty of things from the start and have only learned to pretend to be good from their own deceptive, womanly ways. I'll assume that I don't have to insult anyone's intelligence by explaining all the ways that's wrong, too.The fact of the matter is that men are in power. We're on top. Well, maybe not "we" since I'm a racial minority, but I'm still more "on top" in many ways than white women. Since we're the ones in power, we define reality more. We create the social constructs. And we made them to benefit us the most without as much regard for other groups, naturally. And, while I'm really not a fan of zero-sum gender dynamics, the fact remains that we made some things worse for women while we made some things better for ourselves. One of these worse things is the sexual double standard that birthed slut-shaming, which not only makes things worse for women directly, but also reinforces a fiercely competitive sexual market that makes it harder for the average guy to get laid. The point I'm ultimately trying to make here is that, in some ways, women really did learn to "be mean from evil, dirty men" in a sense. The oppressed adapt to survive by adopting the rules of the oppressors. I'm suggesting that men in power created slut-shaming to commodify women's sexuality, and that women forced themselves to fit into that mold in order to appease said men in power. |
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| Author: | DdOS [ Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Women Evolved to be Catty? |
Quote:
The fact of the matter is that men are in power. We're on top. Well, maybe not "we" since I'm a racial minority, but I'm still more "on top" in many ways than white women. Since we're the ones in power, we define reality more. We create the social constructs. And we made them to benefit us the most without as much regard for other groups, naturally. And, while I'm really not a fan of zero-sum gender dynamics, the fact remains that we made some things worse for women while we made some things better for ourselves. One of these worse things is the sexual double standard that birthed slut-shaming, which not only makes things worse for women directly, but also reinforces a fiercely competitive sexual market that makes it harder for the average guy to get laid.
I believe you are oversimplifying things, male-female social interaction can't be reduced to "men on top- women below" because while men hold and have always held a lot of visible power that does not mean women were powerless, in fact their power was arguably in some way even equal or greater than the power of men. Why? Because of the man's ingrained need to protect women from harm and appease her standards of a good partner, all women needed to do was convince men they were in some kind of danger to bend them to their will, and also as women always meant status that means that, while indirectly women played a rather large part in social structures just by selection of acceptable mates. Simply put it is just a simple natural selection, a certain characteristics are desirable so people with such characteristics have a greater chance to transfer their genes to the offspring. As for commodifiying somebody's sexuality i hate to break it to you but sexuality is a commodity, one with a very real price. Sometimes men buy that sexuality with another kind of commodity, work, and sometimes with money. In the grand scheme of things women need to bear children so they are vulnerable and cant provide as well while pregnant and with small children, on the other hand men have excess time on their hands and are unable to procreate on their own, so they exchange what they have for what women have. When you strip it down to the barest level it is not much unlike exchange of goods, despite all the feelings involved in the grand scheme of things individuals are irrelevant, what is relevant is that the species best genetic samples procreate with other best genetic samples and bear healthy children who will continue doing the same thing. Strategies for that are often so complicated and so contradictory that they are nearly impossible to navigate.Game theory teaches us that cooperation can be developed purely from selfishness, if you exchange your chickens for apples the other guy is growing then if you do not deliver chickens you will not receive next batch of apples, it is not in your best interest to double cross your partner, unless you think you can get away with it in which case it becomes in your best interest. And the people who can balance the risks to always end up on top are the successful ones. So is in sexual interactions, the best scenario for woman is to have children with high quality male and have her children cared for by a male of lower quality as high quality males are hard to hold on to. It is best strategy for males to be high quality and have children with as many women as possible but failing that they will settle for a role of provider as long as they are sure their wife will not have children with other men. So it is a risky proposition for women to have children with high quality males because if they get caught they can wind up alone with the child, but many will still do it if they think they can get away with it, simply because the women with such traits had the best prospects of maintaining their genes. Evolution knows no mercy.
The point I'm ultimately trying to make here is that, in some ways, women really did learn to "be mean from evil, dirty men" in a sense. The oppressed adapt to survive by adopting the rules of the oppressors. I'm suggesting that men in power created slut-shaming to commodify women's sexuality, and that women forced themselves to fit into that mold in order to appease said men in power. |
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| Author: | Chief [ Sat Jan 04, 2014 4:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Women Evolved to be Catty? |
Quote: I believe you are oversimplifying things, male-female social interaction can't be reduced to "men on top- women below" because while men hold and have always held a lot of visible power that does not mean women were powerless, in fact their power was arguably in some way even equal or greater than the power of men. Why? Because of the man's ingrained need to protect women from harm and appease her standards of a good partner, all women needed to do was convince men they were in some kind of danger to bend them to their will, and also as women always meant status that means that, while indirectly women played a rather large part in social structures just by selection of acceptable mates. Simply put it is just a simple natural selection, a certain characteristics are desirable so people with such characteristics have a greater chance to transfer their genes to the offspring. As for commodifiying somebody's sexuality i hate to break it to you but sexuality is a commodity, one with a very real price. Sometimes men buy that sexuality with another kind of commodity, work, and sometimes with money. In the grand scheme of things women need to bear children so they are vulnerable and cant provide as well while pregnant and with small children, on the other hand men have excess time on their hands and are unable to procreate on their own, so they exchange what they have for what women have. When you strip it down to the barest level it is not much unlike exchange of goods, despite all the feelings involved in the grand scheme of things individuals are irrelevant, what is relevant is that the species best genetic samples procreate with other best genetic samples and bear healthy children who will continue doing the same thing. Strategies for that are often so complicated and so contradictory that they are nearly impossible to navigate.Game theory teaches us that cooperation can be developed purely from selfishness, if you exchange your chickens for apples the other guy is growing then if you do not deliver chickens you will not receive next batch of apples, it is not in your best interest to double cross your partner, unless you think you can get away with it in which case it becomes in your best interest. And the people who can balance the risks to always end up on top are the successful ones. So is in sexual interactions, the best scenario for woman is to have children with high quality male and have her children cared for by a male of lower quality as high quality males are hard to hold on to. It is best strategy for males to be high quality and have children with as many women as possible but failing that they will settle for a role of provider as long as they are sure their wife will not have children with other men. So it is a risky proposition for women to have children with high quality males because if they get caught they can wind up alone with the child, but many will still do it if they think they can get away with it, simply because the women with such traits had the best prospects of maintaining their genes. Evolution knows no mercy.
You're explaining things to me that I already know in the context of evolutionary psychology and biopsych. I already know plenty of it from 10+ years in PUA and 2 years of formal education in psychology.But we're talking about different things. I'm not talking about male-female social interactions like in the frame you're assuming I'm talking about. I'm talking about social constructs and the nurture side of things. I'm talking about the bigger picture. Not interactions. You could say I've... evolved in my thinking lol |
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| Author: | Cool Hand Luke [ Sat Jan 04, 2014 6:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Women Evolved to be Catty? |
Women are way, way more aggressive than men can ever imagine. In our society women are expected to be nice girls, so their aggressiveness is behind the scenes is ultra aggressive and vicious. I rated this book a 10 after reading it. And would recommend it to every, very serious student of pickup. You will be enlightened. Odd Girl Out: The Hidden Culture of Aggression in Girls By Rachael Simmons Amazon.com Review There is little sugar but lots of spice in journalist Rachel Simmons's brave and brilliant book that skewers the stereotype of girls as the kinder, gentler gender. Odd Girl Out begins with the premise that girls are socialized to be sweet with a double bind: they must value friendships; but they must not express the anger that might destroy them. Lacking cultural permission to acknowledge conflict, girls develop what Simmons calls "a hidden culture of silent and indirect aggression." The author, who visited 30 schools and talked to 300 girls, catalogues chilling and heartbreaking acts of aggression, including the silent SPAM, note-passing, glaring, gossiping, ganging up, fashion police, and being nice in private/mean in public. She decodes the vocabulary of these sneak attacks, explaining, for example, three ways to parse the meaning of "I'm fat." Simmons is a gifted writer who is skilled at describing destructive patterns and prescribing clear-cut strategies for parents, teachers, and girls to resist them. "The heart of resistance is truth telling," advises Simmons. She guides readers to nurture emotional honesty in girls and to discover a language for public discussions of bullying. She offers innovative ideas for changing the dynamics of the classroom, sample dialogues for talking to daughters, and exercises for girls and their friends to explore and resolve messy feelings and conflicts head-on. One intriguing chapter contrasts truth telling in white middle class, African-American, Latino, and working-class communities. Odd Girl Out is that rare book with the power to touch individual lives and transform the culture that constrains girls--and boys--from speaking the truth. --Barbara Mackoff From Publishers Weekly Although more than 16 years have passed, Rhodes Scholar Simmons hasn't forgotten how she felt when Abby told the other girls in third grade not to play with her, nor has she stopped thinking about her own role in giving Noa the silent SPAM. Simmons examines how such "alternative aggression" where girls use their relationship with the victim as a weapon flourishes and its harmful effects. Through interviews with more than 300 girls in 10 schools (in two urban areas and a small town), as well as 50 women who experienced alternative aggression when they were young, Simmons offers a detailed portrait of girls' bullying. Citing the work of Carol Gilligan and Lyn Mikel Brown, she shows the toll that alternative aggression can take on girls' self-esteem. For Simmons, the restraints that society imposes to prevent girls from venting feelings of competition, jealousy and anger is largely to blame for this type of bullying. It forces girls to turn their lives into "a perverse game of Twister," where their only outlets for expressing negative feelings are covert looks, turned backs and whispers. Since the events at Columbine, some schools have taken steps to curb relational aggression. For those that haven't, Simmons makes an impassioned plea that no form of bullying be permitted. Copyright 2002 Cahners Business Information, Inc. |
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| Author: | Monsignor Crisanto [ Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Women Evolved to be Catty? |
Quote: I always thought that the "sexual policing" was a direct byproduct of the patriarchal hegemony - Men wanted to commoditize women's sexuality in order to exercise male dominance and to keep women oppressed.
Not really. It's more of the reverse.Men put high value women into brands: she's a princess, she's the one, she's girlfriend material, and so on and pamper them with gifts and nice things. JP Sartre is notorious for keeping mistresses in lush lodgings while living a very spartan life. It's like Skills360 naming all of his business interests to her long time girlfriend. Among the aristocracy in the Feudal Age, women are tokens of power where daughters are married off to a king or prince or baron to expand a family's territory or secure the lineage. In Feudal Japanese society, Geishas are highly respected if not worshiped according at least to James Clavell. But women who are likely to break a man's heart are commodity-fied into the slut or prostitute which can be gotten a dime a dozen (cheap sex). On the other hand, it's interesting that these researchers are attributing sexual policing to women. Perhaps if they have read Nietzsche's Genealogy of Morals they might NOT be attributing this behavior to evolution but rather religion. However, I highly doubt it whether religion has been there long enough to influence human genes. As for indirect aggression, it helps to realize that women's testosterone levels are around 10 times lesser than men on the average while they have lots of the nurturing hormone, progesterone. |
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| Author: | Prophet'sOracle [ Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Women Evolved to be Catty? |
Quote: I think it might look like women created and perpetuated their own sexual double standards, but to me it seems like they've simply adapted to using a weapon the patriarchy had initially created. How would women know to slut-shame if men hadn't jealously created the concept of a "slut" in the first place?
Your statement is illogical. Civilization is less than 10,000 years old and evolution is a process which occurs over tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of years. If women have evolved to be catty, then it by logic it was a process that began prior to "civilization" and thus "patriarchy" has nothing to do with it. The world slut I'm suspecting is something that evolved over time to prevent cuckoldry and men from wasting their time raising kids who would not continue their lineage and thus render the man's family extinct. Thoughts? As much as I support women's' rights I hear women use the words slut and bitch an awful lot more than men do. I hear women constantly demoralize one another in order to get the upper hand in order to gain access to men they perceive to be of "value". I am in support of the idea that women are often their worst enemies. Men partaking in this act seems to be only about 12,000 years old or less. Civilization it would seem has evolved to protect males and ensure that they would have viable offspring that would procreate and continue a man's lineage. From the perspective of evolutionary biology, having a loose partner is highly unattractive and will most likely render your family line, thus you, extinct. In order to control the phenomenon of cuckoldry, I believe men amplified (not created), the usage of slut in order to protect his perspective family lineage. In other words, it was a survival tactic, not an act of malice. ETA: Just to add a comment. One of the fundamentals of PUA is to break the males evolutionary instinct to reject women who have a lot of partners. Just a little thought I wanted to add. |
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