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90-10 rule revisited
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Author:  Paetar [ Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:  90-10 rule revisited
OK guys, I bet you have all heard the Juggler's 90-10 rule somewhere.

For you who haven't, it says that at a beginning of a conversation (the A1, A2 and A3 phase for MM junkies :wink: ) you must invest 90% in it, because she only gives cca 10%. If you expect a normal conversation (50-50) you will fuck up because of no-one talking.

Now from my experience I have learned this; YOUR GOAL SHOULD BE TURNING THE TABLES. You aspire to achieve 10-90, where she will talk the 90% herself. Once you have done this, you are golden. She is qualifying herself to you, and you are actively listening; you have won (because, as weird as it may seem, the one who really controls the conversation and is the prize is the listening one - it took me a lot of time to realize it).

When you provide 90%, you are attracting her - directing her thoughts, DHVing (telling stories or assuming higher value), generally being in control - she only has to listen what you say. She can choose to reject you; but she won't if you talk good enough. You certainly aren't boring or don't know what to say. Because you talk. It is during the Attraction phase that this happens.

When you provide 10%, and she does the rest, then you are comforting her; listening to what she has to say, how is she trying to pick you up. You are building the "connection."


Now someone may say, "Isn't the 50-50 conversation your goal? Isn't it supposed to be normal conversation?."

NO.

You are throwing the "talking ball" around. When you show you can listen too, it is huge DHV. Remember how many woman complain that no guy would listen? Well, you should. You really should. And try to remember as much as you can.

Use your 10% to direct her theme of her talking. Make it herself; anyone can talk about themselves (and are fucking eager to see how someone else sees them) and they will love it. With her talking about her experiences, she is qualifying herself. She is chasing YOU.


THE IMPORTANT NOTE:

DON'T SWITCH THE TABLES TOO FAST. You will end up being an "emotional tampon" to her problems. Make the table switch slow, natural. Remember, build enough attraction first so she won't put you in the friends zone.

And, be honest. If some her theme is boring you, is irrelevant or simply stupid, tell her. She may dislike it at first, but later she will love you for it. And you are saving yourself a lot of trouble later avoiding bad themes. Don't forget, you are making her a favor by listening to her. So make sure she talks about something that is interesting enough for you to listen to.

Who is talking the most is qualifying himself/herself. First you (attract her) than she (she is giving you reasons why to like her, opening herself to you).

PLZ COMMENT THIS! I'd love to know what are you thinking about this.

Carpe Diem guys!
Author:  ace_of_spades [ Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:48 am ]
Post subject: 
Nice, it really cleared things up a lot for me. As a MM junkie, I feel obliged to clarify: A3 is male-to-female interest, she qualifies herself to you. The tables are already turned in A3.
Quote:
If some her theme is boring you, is irrelevant or simply stupid, tell her
Hmm... suggest an actual line to deliver here (I cant think of one! 'Honey, this is seriously longing me out....'? :roll: )I usually try to cut them off and go into an IVD routine - cs vs us, 5 questions etc. They usually get the message and don't go back into the useless thread.

Then: I'm not sure if 10-90 is a good idea in the comfort-building stages. She has to get to know you a bit, so I guess... 50-50? Not sure though, maybe that's why I seem to have been messing up comfort so much.

Overall though, yes, I agree, 90-10 applies until the hook point (A1 and A2), then reverses in A3. Good post bro!
Author:  Roads [ Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:45 am ]
Post subject: 
Advice on LTR's? 50-50? Also, how can you avoid talking about those topics that she wants to talk about---say how crappy her job is or how much she hates some people she knows. Or is this inevitable?
Author:  Legacy7 [ Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:30 am ]
Post subject: 
The thing your risking here is HORRIBLE threads that are brought up by your target. If she get's onto a subject most likely it will dry up. She will be bored. That's the point of your routines and the continuation of talking on your end. She's learning your personality and understanding your higher value. You are showing and telling her new and interesting things that will make her want to see you more. Being a "good listener" isn't gonna make her want to sleep with you. She's got girlfriends for that. Now when you hit A3 and your making her qualify for you. Then by all means, let her speak. But only about things YOU want to hear about. Cut all boring threads and the ones that don't benefit you. If she gets bored then you are now perceived as boring. Well happy sarging!

Legacy
Author:  Paetar [ Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:19 am ]
Post subject: 
Ace of Spades: be honest. Listen for a while, then change the topic (that is what you 10% should be for mainly) and if she keeps going back tell her "Hey hon I'll be honest, this really isn't very interesting to me." Use this carefully, it is preferred to make her talking about something in her topic that is interesting (if there is anything).
Simply, listen for a while, nod a bit, but don't let her to fully open that topic.

50-50 is normal and boring. It is usual and expected. You want to be more than that; you want to truly listen and truly speak. When listening to some her topic, follow the 10-90 (listen mainly). For other - yours - topic, make her listen by 90-10 (talk mainly).

Roads; if she keeps bitching about her problem, ask her if she really wants to solve it. Then offer a solution. And close it. End of story. Tell her your advice and that is it. You would wonder how many times people just want to be pitied; don't pity her. If she wants you to pity her, give her solution and close it. You should never waste your time with anything unworthy - and whining is one thing unworthy anyones time.
As a last ace in sleeve, tell her about two types of people (observers and observed). Observed are active and solve their problems. Observers are too lazy and passive to do anything. Tell her that you want an observed one; someone who does something. End of story.

Legacy7; I am not posting how to get into woman's panties. I am posting how to make woman want you - physically AND mentally - more than any other guy. Trust me, fastest way to make "the connection" with anybody is to listen. Remember, even with her girlfriends she has 50-50 convo. Be 90-10 all the time and you will come off as arrogant and full of yourself.

Otherwise, you are right. Cut all the boring threads, much of those that don't benefit you too. The true mastery is to make her talk about things you are interested in, she knows much about and is actually eager to share with somebody. That is another reason why first goes 90-10 -> open yourself to her and she will do the same.

Hope that now it is clear,

Carpe Diem.
Author:  Legacy7 [ Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'd have to disagree with you. When I speak of f-closing you have to assume the necessary connection to get yourself there. Now your idea would be great for comfort building but not during the attraction stage. There is a reason why your method isn't the most widely used one. You will get blown out of sets more than when you carried the conversation yourself. But to each his own. I just know from experience that if she has something interesting to add let her speak but if it is going nowhere cut the thread. If she's not having fun, then your not fun. I'll say it again. She doesn't need you to listen to her. If you want to make a connection then BREAK into her reality by being surreal. Now I have had some targets be able to hold an interesting conversation. But so far most of the high caliber women I've gone after don't. And you said even her girlfriends give a 50-50 convo? Thinking with that mentality is an AFC mindset that has been landing people into LJBF for years. Please don't take this as an attack. Happy sarging.

Legacy
Author:  TrojanMan88 [ Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
there is no 90-10 rule you just have to be a compelling interesting guy...lol
Author:  Thugnificient [ Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
Any non shy girl if your doing 90% of the talking and they aren't giving nothing to the convo then your just running your mouth

and the 10-90 idea puts her in control of the conversation never good
most conversations flow naturally as long as you're not bent on running your premeditated 20min routine.

like TrojanMan said you just need to be interesting don't worry about rules
Author:  Paetar [ Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
That is the more laic approach I guess.

Carpe Diem.
Author:  Valence [ Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
DON'T SWITCH THE TABLES TOO FAST. You will end up being an "emotional tampon" to her problems. Make the table switch slow, natural. Remember, build enough attraction first so she won't put you in the friends zone.
The tables only turn when there has been attraction built. Being put into 'friend zone' has not relevance to this.
Quote:
And, be honest. If some her theme is boring you, is irrelevant or simply stupid, tell her. She may dislike it at first, but later she will love you for it.
There is more to steering the conversation than this. Asking key questions at different points is a good way to steer the conversation to something more palatable, or potential areas of commonality.
Quote:
say how crappy her job is or how much she hates some people she knows. Or is this inevitable?
Perfect opportunity to do some role playing and build a deeper connection. "So what would you really like to be doing"
Quote:
50-50 is normal and boring. It is usual and expected. You want to be more than that; you want to truly listen and truly speak. When listening to some her topic, follow the 10-90 (listen mainly). For other - yours - topic, make her listen by 90-10 (talk mainly).
It depends where it is at. He referred to a LTR. It is normal and acceptable to have a two way conversation.
Quote:
There is a reason why your method isn't the most widely used one.
The general idea of this method is applied to almost all methods. DHVing, Grounding, Self-Qualification, Routines all revolve around this concept.
Quote:
Now I have had some targets be able to hold an interesting conversation. But so far most of the high caliber women I've gone after don't.
You need to recalibrate what you consider a 'high caliber' woman.
Quote:
And you said even her girlfriends give a 50-50 convo? Thinking with that mentality is an AFC mindset that has been landing people into LJBF for years.
She has a connection with her friends. She is also very comfortable with them. It is not AFC and does not lead to LJBF, but it can. You have to keep attraction up while speaking with her.


The entire point of the 90/10 rule is that in the first phase of meeting someone, it will be expected that you are going to be the conversation. Why? Because she has no reason to be talking with you. If you do not talk, then there is no reason to interact. After you have hooked her, she will want to talk to you. After she is having a conversation with you (qulifing herself) then it is your area to listen. You cannot create a connection with someone if you are not listening, let alone get into comfort.
Author:  The Doctor [ Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
Paetar,

Your on the right track my friend. I personally wouldn't switch to 10-90 ever though... With Juggler Method, or Next Level (My Method)... your not trying to break into her reality... which is why she doesn't need to express her values for quite some time... not even before you sleep together. You express your values with passion, and she will conform to them. These methods are for transforming the interaction so that she is sarging you.
Author:  anutharound [ Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:52 am ]
Post subject: 
actually juggler denounced this rule in the more recent material. By recent I mean like 2002 lol... He now states that it is better to find some way to get her to give 50% from the beginning and already be invested in the conversation from the very beginning than you putting 90 and hoping. You do this through open ended questions and the relate/reward model.

and to all of you that say 50/50 is normal and boring you are dancing monkeys, performing much more than you need to to have a conversation. 50/50 is not afc.
An afc conversation is more like 50 him, and 10% her. Let me ask you this to prove my point. You go watch a movie, good movie and the actors are very good they are the 100%. Eventually the movie is over, you have been entertained, but has the actor really gained anything out of you specifically other than your money? You were entertained and then because you have no actual investment in them you go on about your life eventually totally forgetting about the movie.
It is the same way during a pickup, and in order to have real genuine interactions it must be 50/50.
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