NLP is (Mostly) Bullshit



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 Post subject: NLP is (Mostly) Bullshit
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:47 pm 
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My claim: NLP is mostly bullshit.

I'm actually curious to see if anyone can show me where NLP has ever held up in any scientific study.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:00 pm 
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http://www.nlp.de/cgi-bin/research/nlp- ... es_entries


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:06 pm 
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NLP is for wimps. Real men don't need it.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:08 pm 
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Quote:
That page comes up as an error.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:09 pm 
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It's obviously bullshit. It exists because it is easy to sell people on 'secret words' and 'magic phrases' that 'subconsciously get her thinking sexual thoughts about you' etc.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:45 am 
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What's NLP?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:07 pm 
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NLP = Neuro Linguistic Programming

If you have seen the "magician" Derren Brown, he is using NLP among other things to do his tricks. Here is a clip where he is using his skills to get a girl attracted to him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_oUDev1rME

And here is some analysis (which probably have lots of flaws) of the same video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Selv87dLX2k

When Derren is talking to the girl about astrology, he is using phrases directed to the woman next to him (who is his target). This makes her believe that the line he came up with in the end was the one of her choice (which it was not). To better demonstrate what I mean, check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL7hihcww1M (using mostly NLP and subconscious hints in the surroundings)

The following is a nice demonstration of anchoring:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zryGzTbU49I


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:43 pm 
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Quote:
NLP = Neuro Linguistic Programming

If you have seen the "magician" Derren Brown, he is using NLP among other things to do his tricks. Here is a clip where he is using his skills to get a girl attracted to him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_oUDev1rME

And here is some analysis (which probably have lots of flaws) of the same video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Selv87dLX2k

When Derren is talking to the girl about astrology, he is using phrases directed to the woman next to him (who is his target). This makes her believe that the line he came up with in the end was the one of her choice (which it was not). To better demonstrate what I mean, check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL7hihcww1M (using mostly NLP and subconscious hints in the surroundings)

The following is a nice demonstration of anchoring:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zryGzTbU49I
Darren Brown does NOT use NLP. Darren Brown is a magician and wants you to think he uses NLP. That's called misdirection. As long as you think what hes doing is NLP then you wont see how he really does that stuff. Don't believe me? I'll let Darren tell you...

"I have never claimed to use NLP to achieve my ‘tricks’. On the contrary, I have written very critically about it in Tricks of the Mind. I reserve the same scepticism for subliminal messaging, as well as a lot of body-language reading and the like." - Darren Brown
Source: http://derrenbrown.co.uk/claim-claim-2/

Furthermore, here is a great article that debunks one of his "NLP tricks." http://www.skepticink.com/notung/2012/1 ... ren-brown/

I asked someone to show me a scientific study that supports the claims of NLP. What you showed me was a stage magician... hardly evidence and certainly not scientific. Using your method of providing evidence I guess I can show you a bunch of stage acts where a women gets cut in half and say "see... its possible to get cut in half and be put back together again without surgery!"

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:03 pm 
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NLP isn't BS, I use it on a regular basis in a sales capacity at work! Although in my experience using it whilst sarging can be counterproductive! The main aim for NLP is about building rapport with people and I've found that doing that gives off too many IOI's to the target and that can straight up kill your game! It doesn't allow you to comply with cat string theory so if anything intend to use NLP in my day 2 or past that point!
One key thing to remember is that not everybody is susceptible to NLP and it usually comes from the fact you haven't built up enough rapport!
It's a very helpful life skill but like I said: not necessarily a good tool for sarging!
Feel free to disagree after all we have our own experiences! I've had good and bad experiences with NLP...


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:24 pm 
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NLP isn't BS, I use it on a regular basis in a sales capacity at work!
Lets break down your first assertion; "NLP isn't BS"

Can you provide me with one scientific experiment that supports your assertion? I don't mean to come off as as ass but its a genuine question of mine.

As for using it at work....

A few years back my mother participated in a study for a new acid reflux drug. They gave her a small supply and directions on how and when to take the drug. Once she was out she had to report on if the drug worked or not. She said that it did and that she experienced a major reduction in acid reflux. Come to find out, what she took was actually a Placebo. It worked because she believed it would.

NLP, in your case, is much the same. A placebo. I'm also in sales and I'm also certified in NLP and I certainly don't use NLP when it comes to sales. Why? Because its bullocks.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:41 pm 
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When you say "experiment" are you wanting me to refer to a scientific study?
Because I'll be honest I have no source for you apart from Loughborough universities sociology under graduate course covers an entire module on NLP, so there's definitely something in it! I just have my own personal experiences and examples of how it's used in practice, especially in high level sport (something that I've been around from a young age)
Like I mentioned in my previous post on a daily basis I'm building up rapport with my customers by body language mirroring, I have noticed that by using specific language to certain customers they respond more positively, matching voice tonality when in sticky situations, to even when I'm coaching my under 17 cricket team I've used anchoring techniques to stop them from feeling nervous before games, visualisation.
I've tried anchoring while sarging by copying the Ross Jeffries attraction anchoring and now whenever I see the a certain girl in my local pub I flick the cognitive trigger (squeezing her hand in a particular way) she gushes over me and she has no understanding of why! (Married with 3 kids)
Júan


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:48 pm 
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When you say "experiment" are you wanting me to refer to a scientific study?
Because I'll be honest I have no source for you apart from Loughborough universities sociology under graduate course covers an entire module on NLP, so there's definitely something in it! I just have my own personal experiences and examples of how it's used in practice, especially in high level sport (something that I've been around from a young age)
Like I mentioned in my previous post on a daily basis I'm building up rapport with my customers by body language mirroring, I have noticed that by using specific language to certain customers they respond more positively, matching voice tonality when in sticky situations, to even when I'm coaching my under 17 cricket team I've used anchoring techniques to stop them from feeling nervous before games, visualisation.
I've tried anchoring while sarging by copying the Ross Jeffries attraction anchoring and now whenever I see the a certain girl in my local pub I flick the cognitive trigger (squeezing her hand in a particular way) she gushes over me and she has no understanding of why! (Married with 3 kids)
Júan
mirroring you say huh?
Mirroring is the practice of matching someone else’s posture to build rapport with them – but it’s often sold cheaply as something simple. In reality, rapport-building is about matching someone in a way that feels comfortable and genuine and causes them to think ‘I like this person because they’re like me’.

But if you’re a cop trying to develop rapport with a criminal by sitting silently in an interrogation room with them and copying their body language, hoping that they’ll spontaneously confess, then you’re a flaming moron.

If you’ve ever noticed that someone is copying your posture and movements exactly, you’ll know that it’s creepy as hell. It does not develop rapport, it destroys it. Not surprisingly, the suspect just sat there in silence. Worst. Research. Ever.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:04 pm 
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Mirroring isn't NLP... just because it's included in NLP books doesn't make it part of that... It's in tons of body language books, anthropology, psychology... hardly say it's NLP.

It's a basic behavior that reaches back millions of years that is a natural part of human behavior. It starts when we are babies when we look at the faces of others.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:13 pm 
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When you say "experiment" are you wanting me to refer to a scientific study?
Because I'll be honest I have no source for you apart from Loughborough universities sociology under graduate course covers an entire module on NLP, so there's definitely something in it! I just have my own personal experiences and examples of how it's used in practice, especially in high level sport (something that I've been around from a young age)
Like I mentioned in my previous post on a daily basis I'm building up rapport with my customers by body language mirroring, I have noticed that by using specific language to certain customers they respond more positively, matching voice tonality when in sticky situations, to even when I'm coaching my under 17 cricket team I've used anchoring techniques to stop them from feeling nervous before games, visualisation.
I've tried anchoring while sarging by copying the Ross Jeffries attraction anchoring and now whenever I see the a certain girl in my local pub I flick the cognitive trigger (squeezing her hand in a particular way) she gushes over me and she has no understanding of why! (Married with 3 kids)
Júan
I'll first address your personal experience with NLP again. Correlation does not equal causation. It comes back down to placebo. Its just like many "pua techniques." Guy approaches girl "A" and uses PUA Technique "B" and Girl "A" shows interest in him. Guy thinks its because of using PUA Technique "B" but really the girl would have been into him anyways because she likes the way he looks. Correlation does not equal causation.

As for Loughborough university. I'm curious, does that course actually teach the use of NLP and imply that it works or does it simply cover NLP such as "in our efforts to cover everything we want to let you know there is this thing called NLP. This is how it works though its not clear as to if its valid scientifically or not."

If its taught just to cover all bases then I have no problem with it. If its taught as an actual valid method then I do have a problem with it and believe the students should get their money back.

One university teaching NLP is not a case for scientific validity. However, sense I'm asking for people to provide scientific studies that show NLP does work, I should provide studies that show it doesn't exactly hold up to its claims.

"A systematic review of experimental studies by Sturt et al (2012) concluded that "that there is little evidence that NLP interventions improve health-related outcomes." In his review of NLP, Stephen Briers writes, "NLP is not really a cohesive therapy but a ragbag of different techniques without a particularly clear theoretical basis...[and its] evidence base is virtually non-existent." Eisner writes, "NLP appears to be a superficial and gimmicky approach to dealing with mental health problems. Unfortunately, NLP appears to be the first in a long line of mass marketing seminars that purport to virtually cure any mental disorder...it appears that NLP has no empirical or scientific support as to the underlying tenets of its theory or clinical effectiveness. What remains is a mass-marketed serving of psychopablum."

Sources:

"Neurolinguistic programming: a systematic review of the effects on health outcomes". British Journal of General Practice (Royal College of General Practitioners) 62 (604): e757–64.

Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (2nd ed.). Harlow: Pearson. p. 11. ISBN 0273777734.

The Death of Psychotherapy: From Freud to Alien Abductions (1st ed.). Praeger. pp. 158–9. ISBN 0275964132.


All of the above written by guys with actual degrees, all Ph.d's I believe.

Furthermore, "A research committee working for the United States National Research Council led by Daniel Druckman came to two conclusions. First, the committee "found little if any" evidence to support NLP's assumptions or to indicate that it is effective as a strategy for social influence.

I have to be honest when I say that I don't know who every member of the research committee is but Daniel Druckman is a highly respected Ph.D.

Neuroscientists Sergio Della Sala and Barry Beyerstein wrote, "[NLP] began with some now outmoded information from legitimate psychology, linguistics and neuroscience that even most experts accepted back in the 1960s, when NLP first arrived on the scene. The nice thing about real science, as opposed to pseudoscience, is the former eventually corrects its mistakes as new discoveries emerge. NLP remains mired in the past or the never-was."

....I can go on for days with studies that disprove it. What I'm looking for is a legit study that shows evidence for NLP being legit.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:24 pm 
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NLP isn't BS, I use it on a regular basis in a sales capacity at work!
oooh...OOOOH. I am CONVINCED!!!


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