After Jealousy (Sexual Enlightenment)


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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 10:54 pm 
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Most men and women are afflicted by feelings of jealousy. In rare cases people claim and appear to have no psychological disposition towards feeling jealous. Many people claim to be free of jealousy, yet their behaviors suggest that they only want to be free of jealousy, yet still feel it and endure it as best they can, or they seethe underneath with it. The most common occurrence of jealousy is from the fear of your partner being more satisfied by another man or woman than they are by you and in most people no thought is given to whether their partner is happy to return to them or not, although that is the primary crucial point that must be focused upon.

Once jealousy is overcome however, there are still other obstacles before true sexual enlightenment and peace may be attained. Once a man or woman allows themselves to accept that it is natural and can be emotionally harmless (often even beneficial) to allow their partner to engage with other people they find sexually desirable, they must therefore accept that they may not always be enough to fully satisfy their partner. Until this is consciously understood at some level, understanding of why their partner may desire other partners won’t be attained. It should also be understood, that the giving of sexual pleasure to another is often considered to be a friendly caring and sometimes loving gesture devoid of true sexual desire on one or all parts.

Once one has come to terms with the reasons why their partner may have other partners and that they are fully justified and reasonable to have them in their life, then one has to overcome the fear of not being sufficient to fulfill their partner. Much of the reason for feeling jealousy in the first place comes from the fear that your partner will abandon you for another person who satisfies them more. After coming to terms with the fact that you may not always fully satisfy all the needs of your partner, you may find yourself back where you started, worrying (often subconsciously) that one of the people your partner engages with will satisfy them more than you currently are.

To reach complete peace of mind and enlightenment over sexual jealousy, one must take the time to reflect on oneself. In a healthy balanced relationship with a true connection between partners, it should be easy to find proof to reassure yourself that your partner is bonded to you for real reasons and that you fulfill and satisfy them in ways that other people can’t or don’t as well as you can. Allow yourself to see your partners in life as a faithful animal companion; a dog taken off a leash, a falcon untethered, a horse unbridled, yet still loyal and wanting to stay with you and follow you for the way you make them feel to be with you. If you love someone, set them free and if they love you back, they will stay by choice rather than by the constraints you thought you had needed to keep them against their will. Rules and conditions in a relationship are no better than shackles meant to prevent a prisoner from escaping prison.

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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 11:23 am 
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Yes.

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 7:13 pm 
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Very good article Rye Lee, you have my respect. However, I think jealousy can have a different source than the one you focus on here.

It certainly is true that the partner will stay out of her own free will. And she doesn't, the relationship should probably be ended anyway. However, I feel that whenever I do sense a bit of jealousy, its not that I am afraid to lose my partner. It's the fear of being tricked into being with someone who is not worth it.

Let me explain what I mean exactly. People cheat quite often, I slept with girls who had a boyfriend, I know Chief did, and I assume you did as well, just to exemplify the 3 guys that posted in this thread so far. Sometimes girls can be so overwhelmed by a guy because of his great skill that they lose all of their resistance. It might even be fair to say that there is always a guy out there skillful enough to sleep with my partner. It's probably easy to tell if there is a chance of that guy being around my girlfriend. Having a girlfriend who cheated on me is not something I would want. Then I'd rather be single, as I am happy being single all the time and I feel like shit if I had a cheating girlfriend. Then comes another element to the story: If I know my girlfriend cheats, I lose my attraction, see her as polluted, and dump her. But what if there was a way for her to get away with it without me knowing? That would mean I am currently with a polluted girl that I don't want to be with. I think you agree with me that a girl who cheats, maybe just because she wants something extra and thinks casually about sex, is not as valuable as the same girl who doesn't cheat. What if that thing makes all the difference for me wanting to be with her, irrespective of me understanding why she did it? In that case, it might pay off to check her environment. "Test" how she responds to a seductive guy if that guy was to come along, to find out more about what type of girl she is. I definitely don't recommend thinking that way, but trying to gather information on the amount of risk I am taking seems rational. Once a guy starts checking whether a girl is actually trustworthy, problems only get worse from there.

So like I said, what if the origin of fear is not actually losing someone, but the fear that your partner isn't actually as great as you think she is? If you are saying that guys should always accept a girl enough even though she cheats, then this would result in choosing the wrong woman as I think faithful women should always be valued higher than unfaithful women.

What is the solution to solving jealousy with this type of origin?


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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 9:09 pm 
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Thanks for the input Golden, really good stuff!

I have to disagree with your reasoning though and I'll explain. Basically you're worried that if your girl is able to be seduced by another man, that she isn't worth the same to you anymore because she doesn't hold the same value for you as you are holding for her (by being monogamous anyways). That means that if at any point, that "better seducer" comes along, then your girl is inherently worth less because she won't stand a chance against such a roguish man, correct? Shitty deal, you've just made yourself a situation that you can't win!

How do you solve this un-winnable scenario? Just like I said, your real fear is that if she isn't good enough for you anymore, she doesn't love you enough that you are worth enough to her to stay entirely monogamous with you and thus you shouldn't love her and you'll LOSE HER. See? It all comes down to the fear that all that hard effort was for nothing and that nothing you do is good enough to be enough for her...ever!

The solution is to realise that no one...NO ONE....one more time? Not a god damned mother fucking single man on this planet is enough for any woman to be entirely satisfied and fulfilled in every single possible way! Ain't a single woman that is enough to fulfill any man entirely either and if you think I'm wrong, you're telling me that men all over this planet have entirely stopped fantasizing about fucking other women, enjoying the warm-fuzzies that they get when a girl flirts with them (even if it's just her job), etc, etc. BULLSHIT! My girlfriend is fucking ridiculously phenomenal (and she knows it), but she STILL isn't enough to satisfy the horny hungry beast within me...and she knows it! And she LOVES IT!

So the solution! Get over it! You aren't enough for her, she isn't enough for you and it's silly to expect that either of you can be enough for each other ever moment of every day for the rest of your lives. It isn't hopeless though! Just allow yourselves to put your happiness above these silly rules we call "being faithful" and realise that being truly faithful isn't about who you fuck, it's about who had your heart in mind when they're falling asleep at night and whether you're worth coming back to after they get that shag out of their system. If she loves you that much that after 10 guys pound her until she blacks out from all the amazing orgasms, yet she tells them it was just sex and that she isn't interested in them, but she would die for you and kill to be with you...that's fucking love. That's loyalty. Ain't a god damned thing to be jealous about when you can be that self-assured that she ain't gonna leave you. Am I wrong?

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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 11:48 pm 
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Thanks for your reply. So you are saying that anyone should just accept the idea of polygamy even though you are being monogamous and your partner is too? Or are you even saying people shouldn't be monogamous?

I'm a big fan of Nietzsche, and to quote him: "There are no truths, only perceptions". I think your perception of love differs a lot from mine :p. I don't care at all what a girl thinks after being pounded by 10 guys, I'm just disgusted by the idea and she would bind herself with this idea if I knew. I havent been dumped by a girl since I was 9, I'm not afraid of that at all. It might even have benefits for me. If another guy wins her heart than that is a lot better to me than 2 guys just randomly fucking her. I can't help but appreciate pure women, unspoiled by random dicks. I can just fuck any girl I think is attractive no matter how big a slut, but I wouldn't feel the desire to get intimate.

This particular girl I am interested in is quite the romantic type. She'd do anything for romance. Anything that hints at polygamy repels her. She is absolutely incredible though, I'd have to actively game for years to meet anyone I'd find as amazing as I find her again. Adopting psychology where monogamy has no place goes against this vibe of romance between us, which creates a fun way of game to me.

I was just wondering what the best way to deal with jealousy would be without losing my restraint to cheating. If I start thinking cheating is not related to the bond between to lovers, I will definitely start doing it. Is that necessarily the price for getting rid of jealousy??


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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 1:22 am 
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Assumption: A human possesses a set limit which determines satisfaction.
Critique: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=165813

Assumption: Increasing levels of satisfaction increases happiness.
Critique: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill

I also find it of interest that. . .
Quote:
They must therefore accept that they may not always be enough to fully satisfy their partner

But then goes on to say. . .
Quote:
it should be easy to find proof to reassure yourself that your partner is bonded to you for real reasons and that you fulfill and satisfy them in ways that other people can’t or don’t as well as you can.

Am I the only one confused by the above?

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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 5:41 pm 
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The hedonic treadmill seems to plague loads of people. Fortunately the cure isn't complicated. Just lower expectations and focus on enjoying the current moment. I just happen to have just watched a video on how choices increase expectations and thereby decrease happiness, similar to the hedonic treadmill (http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz ... hoice.html).

It doesn't seem related to jealousy though :p

Could you clarify your point, Hobbit?


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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 6:30 pm 
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if she banged 10 guys and then came back to me out of love that would indeed be very touching, but she would also find herself very fucking dumped, the emotional betrayal would be a factor, but it would be mostly down to hygene reasons


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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 5:10 am 
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GoldenWolf wrote:
The hedonic treadmill seems to plague loads of people. Fortunately the cure isn't complicated. Just lower expectations and focus on enjoying the current moment. I just happen to have just watched a video on how choices increase expectations and thereby decrease happiness, similar to the hedonic treadmill (http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz ... hoice.html).

It doesn't seem related to jealousy though :p

Could you clarify your point, Hobbit?

The post is about sexual enlightenment. The message is "Do this for a more satisfied, fulfilling, enlightened relationship." But he misses the whole psychology behind adapting this mentality.

Also, Goldenwolf. I love that you made a connection I didn't, I loved that TED Talk. Congrats on that man. To be honest, I'm quite disappointed with myself that I didn't think of that TED Talk while replying. . .

Jealously is bad, but the poster goes bonkers with this. This approach to deal with it does not help, it probably hinders. Just because jealousy is bad doesn't mean polygamy is the best type of relationship to ensure happiness. As you go to others, you keep increasing expectations, decreasing satisfaction in relationships. Which is the opposite goal of any LTR that I want to be a part of.

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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 10:15 am 
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Hobbit wrote:
The post is about sexual enlightenment. The message is "Do this for a more satisfied, fulfilling, enlightened relationship." But he misses the whole psychology behind adapting this mentality.

Also, Goldenwolf. I love that you made a connection I didn't, I loved that TED Talk. Congrats on that man. To be honest, I'm quite disappointed with myself that I didn't think of that TED Talk while replying. . .

Jealously is bad, but the poster goes bonkers with this. This approach to deal with it does not help, it probably hinders. Just because jealousy is bad doesn't mean polygamy is the best type of relationship to ensure happiness. As you go to others, you keep increasing expectations, decreasing satisfaction in relationships. Which is the opposite goal of any LTR that I want to be a part of.


You seem to have quite high expectations from yourself for someone who is just explaining that decreases satisfaction ;)

But thanks man, you made something that seemed very complicated to me before seem very simple. You even made it seem as if I already came up with the answer to my own question although that's not true. To me those are signs of a true seducer.


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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 4:12 pm 
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Another interesting thing in the research is that positive illusions about your partner is the one of the traits more predicative of success. Part of this is said to work as self fulfilling prophecies.

Maslow wrote:
“Not only does love perceive potentialities but it also actualizes them.”


Seems to me it's much harder to be idealistic about your partner when your constantly reminding yourself of their faults and ways in which others satisfy yourself better.

The benefits of positive illusions: Idealization and the construction of satisfaction in close relationships. wrote:
Path analyses revealed that individuals' impressions of their partners were more a mirror of their self-images and ideals than a reflection of their partners' self-reported attributes . . . . Individuals were happier in their relationships when they idealized their partners and their partners idealized them.


Don't mistake positive illusions for high expectations.

Quote:
In fact, positive illusions about the partner predicted relationship stability better than did trust, satisfaction and love (Murray & Holmes, 1997). Moreover, people with such illusions were more satisfied with their relationships, happier, and tended to persist longer in the face of obstacles, often ignoring negative feedback about their partners (Murray, Holmes, & Griffin, 1996)


Basically what I'm trying to get here is you can't philosophize humans -- just because it looks nice on paper doesn't make it true. And of course, there are many other models of relationships, each explaining a different aspect. But this seems to be an integral part to that explanation.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:58 am 
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Hobbit wrote:
Assumption: A human possesses a set limit which determines satisfaction.
Critique: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=165813

Assumption: Increasing levels of satisfaction increases happiness.
Critique: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill


I don't believe there was any inherent assumption of a limited level of satisfaction, that is in direct contradiction towards my beliefs which are based on the tantric concept of always being able to increase the levels of pleasure and happiness that one can achieve in life. I also don't believe the two are directly proportional, although they do seem to be somewhat interrelated at times. I am incredibly happy at the moment and my life is fantastic lately, yet I am far from truly satisfied with it and I have a long way to go before that is ever the case.


Hobbit wrote:
I also find it of interest that. . .
Quote:
They must therefore accept that they may not always be enough to fully satisfy their partner

But then goes on to say. . .
Quote:
it should be easy to find proof to reassure yourself that your partner is bonded to you for real reasons and that you fulfill and satisfy them in ways that other people can’t or don’t as well as you can.

Am I the only one confused by the above?


As for those quotes, I don't see them as conflicting. I'll give instances from my own life for easy to create examples:

I've been seeing a girl that I have a very deep connection with and she feels the same towards me. I crave as much emotional contact and attention from people as I can get because it fires me up, I feel like I can accomplish anything and I become incredibly productive and successful when I'm getting enough of it. She can't give me as much attention as I want and I'd get bored of getting the same kind of attention all the time so I get the variety of emotional sates I crave by being with lots of different people. This is true of many people, homo sapiens are not solitary creatures by nature and that's just an anthropological fact.

If one of the states I desire at some point is one that I'd get by having sex with someone and she's not around, then she is happy that I can get those feelings from someone else when she can't be the one to do so because she cares more about my happiness than about who is making me happy. I come back to her for reasons that are based on the sum of her personality and everything that makes her her, not because when I want to have sex she's the one who will give it to me. Some other girl may be fun to hang out with and be a sexual partner of mine, but she doesn't make me feel the way that my main girl makes me feel and so I'll always go back to her unless I find someone who surpasses her ability to make me feel "loved" and that I feel "love" towards.

Perhaps she is around, but the way she makes me feel isn't the way I desire to feel at the moment and so I choose to be with someone else instead; that doesn't change anything, she isn't enough for me at the moment so I get fulfillment from someone else instead. She has no jealousy or upset though because I'm happy and she knows I'll come back because I can't get the things I get from her from someone else and so I'll return. If she wanted something from me at that time, there's nothing to say that she can't let me know this and join in or get what she wants from someone else if they can fulfill her needs.


Now...

I by no means said that in order to be happy one must engage in polygamy. If I did say that in there somewhere I don't recall it and I would happily adjust the text accordingly as that is not my belief in any way. I am purely discussing the psychology behind why people are typically driven to desire other sexual partners and how to reconcile such desires in your partners and yourself by a greater understanding of why those impulses don't necessarily negate the feelings of "love" or any emotional bonds between partners.

Honestly I couldn't find any way to reconcile jealousy within myself while hanging onto my belief in monogamy for myself. That doesn't mean I don't think it's possible for other people. I believe it is possible, but you would have to merely evaluate the psychology from a slightly different vantage point.

In a monogamous relationship I'd say the place to start would be by merely acknowledging the psychological validity of polygamy and the reasoning behind it, as well as the complex physical and anthropological factors that contribute to the desires to engage in sex with people who aren't your partner and why they might desire to have sex with people who aren't you. From there I find being incredibly open and blunt about the fact that it is preferable to end a relationship than be in one where your partner isn't happy and you are being cheated on. By making this a central ideal in your relationship and letting them know that you would rather that they be honest with you and leave you for someone else if they found someone better, then you can always assume that as long as she's with you and seems happy, then she is and she isn't simply pretending, or you might as well just end the relationship because you're too paranoid to believe what she's telling you and you're assuming that she would lie to you, right? So then I don't see any reason to be jealous cause she's with you and no one else.

That's the best I can do seeing as I don't see monogamy being functional on a long term (50 > years) basis for more than 80% of people. That is a statistic I just pulled out of my ass, so don't ask me how I came up with it, but I challenge anyone to show me a stat that proves mine wrong (no I won't discuss it unless you have a factual stat, I think we can agree that won't go anywhere and I don't need anymore mental masturbation,).

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:53 am 
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Quote:
I am purely discussing the psychology

No, you are speculating. I, on the other hand, tried my best to discuss purely psychology -- even if it can be hard, since relationship research is very primitive. I went to the academic search engines, had a look around, and saw what our current understanding of relationships are.

Quote:
(no I won't discuss it unless you have a factual stat, I think we can agree that won't go anywhere and I don't need anymore mental masturbation,).

What is the difference between the above and your entire wall of text?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 5:25 pm 
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Well Hobbit, the wall of text is actually meant to help people. You aren't saying helping others is pure mental masturbation are you?

Rye Lee: Thanks for clarifying your point of view. What you are saying is that in a monogamous relationship, it will help to contemplate the validity of sleeping with people other than your partner right? And then you say polygamous relationships are more likely to work on the long term.

I can think of plenty of reasons why people wouldnt want to be monogamous, and I certainly understand why people arent. But that doesnt really help feelings of jealousy right? It will only help if I was to ACCEPT polygamy for myself and my partner. This brings us to the same conclusion.

I think there is only one real way to deal with this type of jealousy. It involves just dealing with it using mental power and stamina. I think the following story best illustrates what I mean:

An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life. "A fight is going on inside me," he said to the boy.

"It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil - he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego." He continued, "The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. The same fight is going on inside you - and inside every other person, too."

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, "Which wolf will win?"

The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed."

When a certain thought or type of thinking is done a lot, it becomes easier for the brain to do that again. The neurons create paths in the brain to make those thoughts easier to accomplish the next time, thats how we gain skill. It works against us when those thoughts arent actually useful. Allowing those thoughts to build in you is therefore self destructive.

The way to deal with jealousy is to let it slip out of your mind at all costs. Get any distraction elsewhere, meditate, enjoy life. keep on doing this until you cant even remember ever having such annoying feelings of jealousy. Focusing on stuff that is better for your personal development is the only way to gain better inner game. Any moment you are busy with jealousy is letting the evil wolf get stronger, any moment you are productively increasing your personal development is letting the good wolf get stronger.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 5:57 pm 
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Totally agree with Rye Lee.

Polyamory isn't a total paradise, not is it for everyone, but if you have solid belief in yourself, and are realistic about the fact that you don't want to commit to the same person for an extended period, then I think it's a great way to live am exciting life filled with a choice of women, fun and less jealousy, neediness and heartbreak than monogamy.

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