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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:46 am 
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Arch Stanton wrote:
JackZero wrote:
Let me tell you how women really are. Once they assume you are worth having sex with when it comes to multiple occasions, they're not worried about you being a stalker. In fact, they will find reasons to think as many positive things as they can about you.




That's not necessarily true. Some women have several men on rotation. Some just want to be FWB, and don't want to fall in love with you (at least not yet). Others are very guarded about their privacy, and have been burned before by stalkers.

Women today will have sex with you, and not give two fucks about you. Often they are in it for "the score" themselves. in a lot of ways, women act more dominant than most men do, thus the need for this forum.

Is the behavior of the woman in the OP's post ideal?

No.

But it doesn't mean "something is wrong" either. It's an awfully simplistic viewpoint.

When you start dating the more socially valuable women, Jack, you'll see this play out more often.
Arch, that's more due to your weakness. You play it safe with women because your approach to women is fearful. I don't worry about a woman's social value because I have social value. Your approach to women is you not wanting to scare them away and mine is making them not want to let me get away. I experience different results than you because I'm never on eggshells.


Last edited by JackZero on Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:47 am 
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Arch Stanton wrote:
Whatever, I'm done arguing. hitting the strip club tonight with my girl and her friend.

Clearly we have differing views on how the OP should proceed, and I can leave it at that.

Probably the smartest thing you've said on this board in quite some time. It would have served you better saying this a few pages back, however.

Awe I remember being 19 and taking my then gf to a strip bar, very nostalgic thanks for invoking that memory for me:)


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:56 am 
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Arch, do you really think stalkers have the highest standards? Like stalkers mostly go for the hottest women? You said something the other day that the hot chicks are more likely to be sexually abused....you do realize that many times, victims of sexual abuse eat more to defend themselves, hence are likely to be obese right, vs just a world where pedos are just that selective for molestation. I'm just wondering if you really believe the shit these chicks tell you. Chicks will say shit man. So of course they're gonna try to make themselves special like oh they're so hot they have all these stalkers hence xyz. Some guys are creepy. They arent selective on who to stalk or obsess over. In fact, a socially valuable chick as you say, should be fucking a higher "level" of men than a chick thats not "socially valuable." So the guys who fucked one 10, fucked other 10's. You make it sound like these chicks are just dating guys who cant help but fall for them because of their beauty. People here will tell you this, because we've all known women who like to say shit or make themselves sound like that. Its bs man. Stop falling for the shit chicks say. I'm serious man...you let these chicks make you believe all kinds of shit.

Really, do some coaching. As in coach a few people. I think you'll see that when guys describe all these situations and you think "ahh...a gorgeous chick"...you'll see its just a regular chick suffering from the same weirdness/mental issue/game playing as another chick. Like seriously, you cant honestly coach people and still think that these situations indicate hotness or social value.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:53 am 
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neo87 wrote:
Arch, do you really think stalkers have the highest standards? Like stalkers mostly go for the hottest women? You said something the other day that the hot chicks are more likely to be sexually abused

I wonder if this guy gets his stats from the same place as Donald Trump.

....you do realize that many times, victims of sexual abuse eat more to defend themselves, hence are likely to be obese right, vs just a world where pedos are just that selective for molestation. I'm just wondering if you really believe the shit these chicks tell you. Chicks will say shit man. So of course they're gonna try to make themselves special like oh they're so hot they have all these stalkers hence xyz.

Every girl, almost without exception, will paint themselves as being the chooser/in-demand etc out of ego and to increase perceived desirability. I get a kick out of it everytime and just play along.

Some guys are creepy. They arent selective on who to stalk or obsess over. In fact, a socially valuable chick as you say, should be fucking a higher "level" of men than a chick thats not "socially valuable." So the guys who fucked one 10, fucked other 10's. You make it sound like these chicks are just dating guys who cant help but fall for them because of their beauty.

This is congruent in his emphasis on looks as being the primary factor of value.

People here will tell you this, because we've all known women who like to say shit or make themselves sound like that. Its bs man. Stop falling for the shit chicks say. I'm serious man...you let these chicks make you believe all kinds of shit.

Really, do some coaching. As in coach a few people. I think you'll see that when guys describe all these situations and you think "ahh...a gorgeous chick"...you'll see its just a regular chick suffering from the same weirdness/mental issue/game playing as another chick. Like seriously, you cant honestly coach people and still think that these situations indicate hotness or social value.

Unfortunately he can do whatever he likes as a 'coach'. I only hope guys here aren't naive enough to seek out his advice.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:27 pm 
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She texted me last night thanking me for the flowers (sending me a pic of them in a vase). We talked a lot about random things during the day. I half jokingly asked that she spend the night. She was spending time with a friend who is in the middle of a break up and declined. She said maybe we could get breakfast sunday which I declined (trying to keep girlfriend-y things to a minimum). She said that shes pretty busy the next few weeks but has several weeks off after that and maybe she could drop by my work and drop off lunch or something. In my head I'm thinking "we barely hang out and Ive never been to your place. Yet you want to come to my work?" Im not sure if she's being serious or not. Maybe just trying to keep in me on the hook

This whole thing is making me depressed. I just want a relationship with someone that wants me as much as I want them. This is making me feel like a huge loser. I am a smart guy, above average looking, I work out, have traveled everywhere, I do MMA type boxing, I'm a doctor. I generally feel like I'm pretty well rounded. I've been in this situation before where I end up doubting myself and feeling like shit due to relationship difficulties. I've tried being Mr. dont-care alpha, and I've tried being a romantic. I feel like there's something about me that makes the 9's/10's out of reach. I'm not sure what else to do.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:42 pm 
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DrDork wrote:
She texted me last night thanking me for the flowers (sending me a pic of them in a vase). We talked a lot about random things during the day. I half jokingly asked that she spend the night. She was spending time with a friend who is in the middle of a break up and declined. She said maybe we could get breakfast sunday which I declined (trying to keep girlfriend-y things to a minimum). She said that shes pretty busy the next few weeks but has several weeks off after that and maybe she could drop by my work and drop off lunch or something. In my head I'm thinking "we barely hang out and Ive never been to your place. Yet you want to come to my work?" Im not sure if she's being serious or not. Maybe just trying to keep in me on the hook

This whole thing is making me depressed. I just want a relationship with someone that wants me as much as I want them. This is making me feel like a huge loser. I am a smart guy, above average looking, I work out, have traveled everywhere, I do MMA type boxing, I'm a doctor. I generally feel like I'm pretty well rounded. I've been in this situation before where I end up doubting myself and feeling like shit due to relationship difficulties. I've tried being Mr. dont-care alpha, and I've tried being a romantic. I feel like there's something about me that makes the 9's/10's out of reach. I'm not sure what else to do.

n2thevoid wrote:
When you find yourself preoccupied with thoughts of her and where this is going, simply come back to presence, and instead do something to re-invest that energy in you (e.g., going for a run, to the gym, reading a book, going out for a drink w a friend etc).


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:53 pm 
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DrDork wrote:
She texted me last night thanking me for the flowers (sending me a pic of them in a vase). We talked a lot about random things during the day. I half jokingly asked that she spend the night. She was spending time with a friend who is in the middle of a break up and declined. She said maybe we could get breakfast sunday which I declined (trying to keep girlfriend-y things to a minimum). She said that shes pretty busy the next few weeks but has several weeks off after that and maybe she could drop by my work and drop off lunch or something. In my head I'm thinking "we barely hang out and Ive never been to your place. Yet you want to come to my work?" Im not sure if she's being serious or not. Maybe just trying to keep in me on the hook


Sorry to hear all this, man.

What you were doing was working, and then you "spoke your needs" as Void and Neo advised, and she friend-zoned you.

Voids "speak your needs" advice is great when a woman has said she loves you and wants to be exclusive. It's terrible for early courtship.



Quote:
This whole thing is making me depressed. I just want a relationship with someone that wants me as much as I want them. This is making me feel like a huge loser. I am a smart guy, above average looking, I work out, have traveled everywhere, I do MMA type boxing, I'm a doctor. I generally feel like I'm pretty well rounded. I've been in this situation before where I end up doubting myself and feeling like shit due to relationship difficulties. I've tried being Mr. dont-care alpha, and I've tried being a romantic. I feel like there's something about me that makes the 9's/10's out of reach. I'm not sure what else to do.



You HAD her. Remember that. You HAD this woman coming to your place and fucking you.

Where you went wrong was you became emotionally-uncentered and impatient. When you called her and "spoke your needs", it killed her attraction. You can be a doctor, have a great body, etc. But if you don't behave like a dominant, patient male, you will STRUGGLE keeping 9's and 10's.

All you had to do with her was keep having sex, keep it chill and fun. And if you work at it (learn good technique, make her cum) eventually she'll open up emotionally and want to be exclusive.

But this is an ORGANIC process. You can't "convince" 9's and 10's to be with you with words. It has to be through great sex, fun, passion, chill indifference, and patience.

Men tend to let the wheels spin in their head, and create drama when there is none, or to create a control mechanism. This is why women do most of the dumping.

You had a very hot woman coming over to your place and fucking you.

What was the problem?

How is this ever a problem?


Sit back, have amazing fun, and enjoy your life. Let things unfold organically. Don't ask a newer woman to "spend the night". You just invite her over, and let her spend the night organically. You're telegraphing too many of your needs to be able to keep 9's and 10's in the early courtship process.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:43 pm 
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Arch Stanton wrote:
You had a very hot woman coming over to your place and fucking you.

What was the problem?

How is this ever a problem?


Sit back, have amazing fun, and enjoy your life. Let things unfold organically. Don't ask a newer woman to "spend the night". You just invite her over, and let her spend the night organically. You're telegraphing too many of your needs to be able to keep 9's and 10's in the early courtship process.


Didn't feel emotionally fulfilling. Yeah maybe I was impatient and should have been more centered. Oh well, lesson learned for the next one.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:57 pm 
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You are a man.

You are a leader.

You don't NEED to be "emotionally fulfilled' by a woman. Because YOU emotionally fulfill yourself.

When you go about your purpose in life, and engage in hobby's you're passionate about, and kick ass in the bedroom in-between, and remain emotionally-centered, 9's and 10's will come around and open up emotionally.

You just have to wait them out. You can't get them to care about you with words. Women are far more intuitive and socially savvy than most men.

When I preach patience on this forum, I don't think most guys realize what I'm talking about. It can take a couple months for truly beautiful women to begin to open up emotionally and want to be exclusive.

How you treated this woman early on, is exactly how she deserved to be treated. You got guilty feeling and "nice guy" about the sex, when the truth is, she probably was just in it for the sex (at the time) and she just agreed with your line of logic during your phone call so she wouldn't rock the boat.

Date other women, see if this one hits you back. Your lack of contact with her is like a "needy cleanse". Sometimes this can bring a woman back down onto your side of the pasture.

If she hits you up, keep the chit chat to ZERO levels, and invite her over to your place.

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Last edited by Arch Stanton on Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:05 pm 
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Dunno why you don't go for the breakfast to be honest. Better that, than wait weeks for her to maybe drop food off to you while she's busy. Remember a woman of value will have guys hollering at her all the time. Don't give them the opportunity to occupy her time, when you can't.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:49 pm 
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Quote:
Sorry to hear all this, man.

What you were doing was working, and then you "spoke your needs" as Void and Neo advised, and she friend-zoned you.

Voids "speak your needs" advice is great when a woman has said she loves you and wants to be exclusive. It's terrible for early courtship.


Arch, quit lying. She was always too busy for OP. She had always not had him over. She confronted OP abt not walking her out after sex and now no sex. You're being dishonest or just silly if you think that OP saying he doesnt like something = her losing attraction. You keep talking about passion and good sex, guess what....OP fucked her twice and she cut off the sex. She wasnt cuddling. If you really believed all this good sex stuff, you'd at least say well the sex wasnt that good so she wasnt cuddling, hence why she cut it off. But no...it was the conversation.

Quote:
I've tried being Mr. dont-care alpha, and I've tried being a romantic.


He's tried your dont care way....still got him here. You're telling him craziness that he treated her correctly in the beginning...then why would he be here?

Look OP, Arch is telling you that if you fucked her well, been indifferent and patient and all that stuff, she'd have come around and wanted to be your gf. And I'm not going to say that...because a claim like that is ridiculous in the first place. The moment you think doing XYZ=the outcome you want....the world doesnt work like that. Chicks have baggage, you may not be compatible with them, chicks have issues. This guarantee game that Arch is preaching to you is just not a reality. I can never tell you if you do XYZ you'll get something. And hopefully as a dr. you get that point. The only thing you can do is look for chicks you're compatible with and want what you want. Some chicks wont be. Some chicks will. Be happy with yourself, date and see who wants what you want. Those that dont, dont waste your time trying to get them to. If your goal is how do I KEEP this chick, well follow Arch. Sacrifice what you want to have her. If your goal is how do I FIND a chick that wants what you do, then dont be afraid to say what you want, drop the games and let the women who like you for you into your life.

I cant guarantee that being honest would have lead to her being your girl, or texting you more or having you over. What I can guarantee is if you were honest about what you wanted and not afraid of whether she stayed or left, you'd be in a better place. You'll always be a needy guy if you have this "how do i keep her" mentality. See how Arch is talking? "Chick was coming over and fucking you..what more do you want?" Like shut up and be happy you have SOMETHING. That's a begging mentality. That's talk like you're on the slave plantation happy for a meal. Be happy with yourself and dont trade what you want for a chick's value. Whether a chick is fucking you, likes you, loves you, is not fucking you, should not be a big deal if you are really emotionally centered.

Or, as Arch says just be patient. Next time, wait it out. Shut up, keep it fun all that. But dont fool yourself that you're being a "leader" somehow, when you're mirroring her and just happy she's fucking you.

The goal should never be a specific woman and KEEPING her via XYZ. That is such beggar language and mindset.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:05 pm 
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neo87 wrote:

Arch, quit lying. She was always too busy for OP. She had always not had him over. She confronted OP abt not walking her out after sex and now no sex. You're being dishonest or just silly if you think that OP saying he doesnt like something = her losing attraction. You keep talking about passion and good sex, guess what....OP fucked her twice and she cut off the sex. She wasnt cuddling. If you really believed all this good sex stuff, you'd at least say well the sex wasnt that good so she wasnt cuddling, hence why she cut it off. But no...it was the conversation.



Yeah, I'd say, based on the limited information provided, that was part of it. The better you are in bed, the faster they fall for you.

However, the OP still had opportunities.

Where things really went south was the phone call and "speaking his needs". That's not a lie. She went from hanging out, to not.

Quote:
If your goal is how do I FIND a chick that wants what you do, then dont be afraid to say what you want, drop the games and let the women who like you for you into your life.



This is bad advice. Keeping 9's and 10's in your life is an organic process, and Neo is framing it in a very impatient, needy way. Should the OP bring a clipboard with 20 questions on it so he makes sure the woman is "perfect" for him? LOL. Ummm....not how it works.

Attraction is not a choice. You don't choose who blows you away. There will always be imperfections, and most of the time two people have to grow into each other.

Quote:
I cant guarantee that being honest would have lead to her being your girl, or texting you more or having you over. What I can guarantee is if you were honest about what you wanted and not afraid of whether she stayed or left, you'd be in a better place. You'll always be a needy guy if you have this "how do i keep her" mentality.



He followed that advice, and got friend-zoned. So why do you continually advise it?

The "place it comes from" line of PUA advice is such a lame cliche. It means nothing. It's a worthless platitude.


Quote:
See how Arch is talking? "Chick was coming over and fucking you..what more do you want?" Like shut up and be happy you have SOMETHING. That's a begging mentality.


No, that's an ABUNDANCE mentality. It's the mentality of a man who doesn't need a woman to make him happy, because he makes himself happy. Picking up the phone a few meet-ups in and having a serious talk about "speaking your needs" is a beggar mentality.

A man confident in himself, who has socially valuable women blowing up his phone, and who's out enjoying the hell out of fishing or hiking or whatever, thinks to himself "Oh hell yeah, Sarah is coming over tonight. I can't wait to have fun."

And that's it.

He doesn't think "I really need to have a serious talk with Sarah about my needs".

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:20 pm 
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Arch Stanton wrote:
You just have to wait them out. You can't get them to care about you with words. Women are far more intuitive and socially savvy than most men.
This type of thinking is wrong and I'll explain why. Women aren't more socially savvy than most men. Women don't have to take risks because men are the ones that do the approaching. There is nothing that is intuitive or savvy about waiting for the man to make things happen. That's just their role and the man's role, to paraphrase you, is "to be a leader." If you're not going to lead they won't follow. If you're going to lead by ultimatum then they won't follow. If a woman is able to respect you as a man, she will follow you as a man. The OP has given mixed messages to this woman where he's expressed that he can walk away if his needs won't be met but at the same time keeps chasing her without her changing her behavior. That's not consistent behavior so therefore that's not respectable behavior. If you tell a girl that's into you that you have certain expectations from a woman then you have to have the conviction to walk if those expectations are met. If she is into you she will chase you down.

This guy is a valuable man but he is not carrying himself like one. There is no reason to wait her out. He should be thinking that she is missing out and not trying to hold onto her because she's attractive.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:28 pm 
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Arch Stanton wrote:
He followed that advice, and got friend-zoned. So why do you continually advise it?
This is called a "false cause" fallacy. That's like saying the day that you met your girlfriend was the day you wore a red shirt, therefore she likes guys in red shirts.

No, this girl is exhibiting strange behavior. She's planning a spontaneous invite to her place. She's planning to drop by his job to bring him lunch. She obviously doesn't want to lose him at this moment but for some reason she's keeping him at an arms distance. This is normally the behavior of a woman that is trying to get rid of someone (although I could be wrong).


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:47 pm 
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JackZero wrote:
If a woman is able to respect you as a man, she will follow you as a man. The OP has given mixed messages to this woman where he's expressed that he can walk away if his needs won't be met but at the same time keeps chasing her without her changing her behavior. That's not consistent behavior so therefore that's not respectable behavior. If you tell a girl that's into you that you have certain expectations from a woman then you have to have the conviction to walk if those expectations are met. If she is into you she will chase you down.

This guy is a valuable man but he is not carrying himself like one. There is no reason to wait her out. He should be thinking that she is missing out and not trying to hold onto her because she's attractive.



Respect is earned, organically. Admiration and emotions are earned, organically. Over time. They aren't earned because you're a man, lol.

The OP was not in a relationship. She owes him nothing. He owes her nothing. Your advice is far, far too emotionally needy for a situation where two people barely know each other.

It's great advice for men who like jerking off, or slogging 6's.

This forum is basically designed for men who blurt out their feelings right away to women (and over contact them) and thus chase them away. It's called being "emotionally-uncentered".

I don't tell a woman my expectations three fucks in, because I don't even know if she's WORTH THAT energy yet. And a strong, independent woman won't act that way either.

Experienced lovers with many social options will let things unfold organically.

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