The 4-Strike Rule


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 Post subject: Re: The 4-Strike Rule
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:30 am 
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The amount of nitpicking just to be right in this thread is mind boggling. From dudes arguing for the sake of it to dudes trying to do scientific calculations on what a waste of time the 4 strike rule supposedly is. Jesus fucking Christ.

I think we can all agree that persistence is a key necessity in life, not only when it comes to women. Think about how many times you have to call that prospect before you can finally book a meeting to do business. With that said, i am fully aware of there being a fine line between persistence and pestering when it comes to gaming. Any non-aspie guy who is not a stranger to social interaction and calibration can fairly easy spot cues on whether he is being a persistent guy or a pestering cunt.

Persistence with women done out of desperation is of course a big no-no. However, if you lock on to a specific girl that you just have to inseminate, why the fuck would you give someone else the pleasure of doing that upon first rejection? That is just plain fucking stupid!

If you have such a gigantic, un-centered and fragile ego that forces you to give up after your first rejection, maybe you should re-evaluate the idea of marrying a nice, shy, quiet amish girl who does everything you say and shuts the fuck up. Leave the rest up to playas who recognize that there are few things women admire more in a man than him standing up for his convictions and remaining balanced despite rejections and having to deal with negativity. This makes you unique and it makes the girl you locked on to become not just a one night lay but a long term FWB. I dont know about you fellas but i like having booty on speed-dial.

When it comes to the topic of persistence, or in this case, the 4 strike rule, you have got to look for complete rejecting communication before you decide to move on after rejection #1. Since we all know that women have conflicting ways of communicating, you should look for congruent rejection in her verbal communication, body language and tone of voice before you decide to next her.

If she is making up excuses but is giving you non verbal IOIs you'd be a damn fool to not circle around and try again if shes the one you set your sights on. Finally, i suspect many guys here confuse persisting with chasing girls. Those are two completely different things and i don't think either the OP or RSDs 4 strike rule propagates chasing women.

All the best!

SGC_Dame


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 Post subject: Re: The 4-Strike Rule
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:58 am 
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CobraKaiDojo wrote:
Clear disinterest can be completely turned around with persistence. A girl who blows you off (even more than once) can still end up in your bed. Again it comes down to risk/reward. The potential rewards outweigh the basically zero risk. And girls will always be testing you in one way or another. Even your GF or wife that you've been with for years will probably throw subconscious tests at you once in a while. It should expected and endured. Tests never end, and if you're not getting any then you're not recognizing them or putting yourself out there enough.

Yeah, clear disinterest can sometimes be turned around. That doesn't mean it's worth it. Neo addressed it already. The time you invest into that disinterested girl will always be better invested into 10 other, open girls.
And tests don't exist. A woman "testing" you is either being playful, and you're not seeing because the PUA book says she's testing, is being clearly disinterested, but you're calling it a test because the illusion of always being in control sells better than the reality of the fact, or is simply playing games.
And women who play games almost always do so because they have nothing of any essence to offer. So they need to act as if they're a prize.
And they get away with it too. Because there's armies of guys willing to put up with just about anything as long as they get laid.

CobraKaiDojo wrote:
This 4-strike rule is training for eliminating neediness. If you know when you will walk away and you stick to that, then you eventually will not come off as needy. You persist, do everything that you possibly can, and then you walk away. Doing this repeatedly gives you MORE experience. This should be obvious.


It may reduce anxiety but it will not eliminate neediness. In essence, it's a needy action to begin with. Doing "everything you possibly can", especially towards an unreceptive girl, is needy.

And yeah, sure, it gives you more experience. But it also gives you a bad mindset. And it can easily turn you into "that guy" that women always talk about plaguing their night out.

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 Post subject: Re: The 4-Strike Rule
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:55 pm 
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I think you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. And you are justifying not persisting for the sake of pride and ego.

If you want to get laid more, implement this rule.


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 Post subject: Re: The 4-Strike Rule
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:37 pm 
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I think the problem for me here is that there is a difference between rejection vs. resistance. If you approach a girl and she basically communicates "not interested", then the likeliness of her changing her stance about you is slim to none. This is rejection and if you walk away and come back to try again, it will continue to be rejection no matter how much you continue to persist. The odds on it being a test is pretty much nil because when women are somewhat attracted to a man they do not want to push him away just for the reason "to check his frame" because it's counterproductive.

Resistance is different and I wouldn't see a problem with re-approaching a girl that resisted but did not reject. If you come back to her and there is less resistance then it may be worth the persistence (although 4-strikes is overkill IMO).

If you want to be smart about this, don't approach women until she's shown you some interest. Or in PUA terms, IOI's or forcing IOI's. The moment you get those, it's a green light to approach with a very slim chance of rejection. If you end up having to come back, you've already established that there has been some assurance that the initial spark of attraction was already there.


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 Post subject: Re: The 4-Strike Rule
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:36 pm 
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Quote:
If she is making up excuses but is giving you non verbal IOIs you'd be a damn fool to not circle around and try again if shes the one you set your sights on. Finally, i suspect many guys here confuse persisting with chasing girls. Those are two completely different things and i don't think either the OP or RSDs 4 strike rule propagates chasing women.


SGC, these are 2 different things. From the beginning:
Quote:
Before you become expertly socially-calibrated a good rule is 4 STRIKES. Basically this means trying everything four separate times.

Example: you approach a girl in a bar. She ignores you and doesn't say a word. That's Strike 1. Approach her again later, same reaction. Strike 2. Now most guys will give up after the Strike 1 and especially after Strike 2. But what if that girl is testing you? What if she's playing hard to get or is just in "club mode" so she's not as receptive as she would normally be? Approach again, this time she replies back but the interactions goes nowhere or she leaves. Strike 3. TRY ONCE MORE BEFORE GIVING UP. After 4 strikes you know that she is not playing hard to get and is legitimately not interested. But there are no "what if?" moments, you know for sure.


No ones nitpicking, its a FORUM...Not a blog. If you want to post something and cant defend it, start a blog and post it there. Lock the comments. Forum is a place for back and forth on ideas. I love how when ideas are RESPECTFULLY argued against, it becomes an issue. Please OP, SGC and anyone else....dont change your argument once its called out. You say clearly, TRY EVERYTHING 4 TIMES and describe a scenario where a woman isnt giving you IOI's. When it gets called chasing, now its "well of course you're getting non verbal IOI's." No. Cant change the argument. As Jack said, resistance vs rejection. Chick blowing you out on opening=rejection. Chick walking with you and kissing you but telling you she's not coming home w you=resistance. Has nothing to do with ego if you get rejected on opening and choose to find another chick. It has to do with not wasting time on chicks who clearly arent interested to find the ones who are. If you're set on turning uninterested chicks into the interested ones, might as well run MM, go indirect, neg all that shit. That's patience and that's the same thing: trying to turn uninterested chicks into interested ones. Both however, waste time and i see no distinction between these 2 "pass her tests" mentalities.

Again, if you guys have a problem with debating ideas...in the Lounge, keep your content to blogs.


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 Post subject: Re: The 4-Strike Rule
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:03 pm 
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Da wrote:
not for the faint of heart or for R.C. to talk to women who don't hop like a bunny when you say hello.


You missed the point. This isn't about what I do. This is about what he's telling "n00bs" to do.
Also, you're exaggerating.

Aside from that I addressed him claiming this is a good idea when the woman is being clearly disinterested. There's no acting.

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 Post subject: Re: The 4-Strike Rule
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:25 pm 
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Da wrote:
Quote:
Chick walking with you and kissing you but telling you she's not coming home w you=resistance. Has nothing to do with ego if you get rejected on opening and choose to find another chick. It has to do with not wasting time on chicks who clearly arent interested to find the ones who are. If you're set on turning uninterested chicks into the interested ones, might as well run MM, go indirect, neg all that shit. That's patience and that's the same thing: trying to turn uninterested chicks into interested ones. Both however, waste time and i see no distinction between these 2 "pass her tests" mentalities.


I missed all of the drama, but for the sake of discussing theory, as you mentioned, I want to convince you and point out what I see you created as a false dichotomy. More specifically, a women acting disinterested is not the same as a women being disinterested, and while many fail to understand the difference, most of the people on this thread know the difference.

Maybe you have a lower tolerance for drama mamas than the OP but I like to think that it's all part of the fun to find a women that isn't so easily receptive to jumping on me. And that's when it's about preference. Some guys like "easy" while others don't give a shit, and see a girl being sassy as a learned behavior, to weed out losers and creeps, similar to what Mystery described as "Anti-Slut Defense." Tests very much exist, we are always testing our environments, even in jest. Show her you're not a pussy, and she might like it, although, not for the faint of heart or for R.C. to talk to women who don't hop like a bunny when you say hello.


You're using the term false dichotomy...then making a false dichotomy. No one said, a chick has to "hop like a bunny" or must be really receptive for you to continue. You're presenting the 2 options here, myself and RC have just taken what the premise is and responded to that, ie...try 4 times before leaving. Hey, if you want to approach a chick who rejects you 4 times to see if it's a test, then fine. But it doesnt show that you're not a pussy nor have you passed a creep test. Creeps, re approach. Creeps continue even when rejected 4 times. So even if you're not a creep, you're doing the same thing a creep would do. You're playing the law of averages and yeah sometimes you'll get lucky. But don't take it to mean you showed something attractive. It's even worse advice than MM, because even MM would say reengage with a chick on your arm. Reengage another way. Do something and look for an IOI or some shit. I see too many guys with this "she may be testing me by rejecting me" mindset at the bar falling into the creep zone when they're re approaching every chick multiple times. Yes, on rare occasions a chick may "act" disinterested. But with limited time when out, and in dating, if you're putting in 4 times the effort per chick hoping to find the rare one, you're time would be better spent finding the chicks who actually like you.

Quote:
I see your point. This is where it gets interesting, though, because my understanding is that while some people believe we must build attraction, others believe it already exists. Two schools of thought, and I don't know which is correct. Perhaps you believe in the latter, and that's why you see interacting with truly disinterested women as counter productive. Who would disagree?


This is my point with the MM thing. If you believe you must build attraction, why not just go MM? At least MM starts with that premise and tells you things to do to reengage from a better place.


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 Post subject: Re: The 4-Strike Rule
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:49 pm 
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JackZero wrote:
If you approach a girl and she basically communicates "not interested", then the likeliness of her changing her stance about you is slim to none. This is rejection and if you walk away and come back to try again, it will continue to be rejection no matter how much you continue to persist.


In my original post I should've specified that this rule is designed for night-game cold-approach pickup. I've had girls ignore me or show disinterest on approach and I ended up in bed with them, so I disagree with the assumptive negative attitude towards getting a bit of disinterest. Girls DO test, especially with n00bs who may not have the most solid frame yet. This rule is a teaching method. Imo "rejection" usually is just lack of chemistry. Some girls will assume that lack right off the bat, that's why it can be good to persist. The point is - girls do change their minds, persistence is sort of like slowly breaking down a barrier. And the only way to get good at that is by practice.

neo87 wrote:
Chick blowing you out on opening=rejection
Well in that case I've been "rejected" before. Someone like yourself would've given up and I ended up sleeping with that girl. I'm speaking from experience, and it sounds like you do not understand or have not experienced the power of persistence. I don't take a woman's first response at face value and neither should anyone else. If you want to give up easily, that's your choice but I do not feel that is a good habit to teach guys especially ones learning. Persistence, enduring tests and developing a thick skin is a MUCH more effective skill when it comes to cold-approach pickup. I'm actually surprised that some people here don't seem to get it.

If you are not being challenged during pick-ups then you are not aiming high enough (or you are just ridiculously good-looking).

R.C wrote:
You missed the point. This isn't about what I do. This is about what he's telling "n00bs" to do

Yes and I stand by that. This simple concept was taught to me by one of the best cold-approach pickup artists in the world and it dramatically improved my game and the way that I teach others. You cannot really argue with experience or results. But you can be resistant to ideas that do not mesh with your worldview, which I can completely understand. Arguing against it is a bit weird though (especially if you have not implemented or field-tested it yourself first).

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Creeps, re approach.

Limiting mindset and belief which WILL cost you results and lays.

Again this "time wasting" shit is a lame excuse. Not everyone has the luxury of being in venues where there are massive amounts of desirable sets. Sometimes we need to make the most of what we got, and guys learning should not only be maximizing their chances, they should also learn one of the most important skills when it comes to dating and relationships - persistence.


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 Post subject: Re: The 4-Strike Rule
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:47 pm 
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CobraKaiDojo wrote:
You cannot really argue with experience or results.

I'm not arguing with neither experience nor results. And you didn't provide results by the way, just claims. Either way, what I'm arguing is the mentality of "Get laid at all costs". Do "everything in your power" to sway a girl that's not interested.
My questions is simple. Why? It's time ill invested and it doesn't help form an attractive trait nor habit.

CobraKaiDojo wrote:
This simple concept was taught to me by one of the best cold-approach pickup artists in the world and it dramatically improved my game and the way that I teach others.

Do you believe having good "game" is being good with women, or being able to get laid? Because there's a difference.

CobraKaiDojo wrote:
Girls DO test, especially with n00bs who may not have the most solid frame yet. This rule is a teaching method. Imo "rejection" usually is just lack of chemistry.

If you claim that girls do test, then please provide some arguments to support that.
Rejection in my opinion is projected incompatibility. You can call it lack of chemistry or whatever else, but why do you believe every woman is worth so much of your time? Especially considering that lack.

CobraKaiDojo wrote:
But you can be resistant to ideas that do not mesh with your worldview, which I can completely understand. Arguing against it is a bit weird though (especially if you have not implemented or field-tested it yourself first).

I made that specifically clear. They don't clash with my worldview. I said multiple times that I don't doubt this can work. I simply asked why do you think it's a good idea? Fact that something can be done doesn't always mean it should be done.
Literally why keep kicking a dead horse when there's another 50 within walking distance?

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 Post subject: Re: The 4-Strike Rule
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:57 am 
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R.C wrote:
what I'm arguing is the mentality of "Get laid at all costs". Do "everything in your power" to sway a girl that's not interested.
My questions is simple. Why? It's time ill invested and it doesn't help form an attractive trait nor habit.


That's not the mentality that I'm promoting here, what you mentioned is a desperate frame that displays scarcity mentality.

The point of this is to improve oneself, to learn and practice the skill of persistence. I am not advocating wasting time. I'm just pointing out that most guys give up way too early.


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 Post subject: Re: The 4-Strike Rule
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:05 am 
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For those who are shooting down the idea of the 4-strike rule, I advise noobs not to take those objections hook, line and sinker. Try the idea out infield at least a dozen times. If it works for you, that is all that matters.

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 Post subject: Re: The 4-Strike Rule
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:15 am 
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I think that maybe provide an example to how this should go (from an approaching perspective). What I'm reading here is:
1. Approach, fail.
2. Approach, fail.
3. Approach, fail.
4. Approach, SUCCESS!!!

I'm pretty much in the camp of R.C because of the lack of context. There is probably more to it than what was communicated. I've seen you in chat, so I know that you know what you're talking about when you start getting into the details.


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 Post subject: Re: The 4-Strike Rule
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:28 am 
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Quote:
Well in that case I've been "rejected" before. Someone like yourself would've given up and I ended up sleeping with that girl. I'm speaking from experience, and it sounds like you do not understand or have not experienced the power of persistence. I don't take a woman's first response at face value and neither should anyone else. If you want to give up easily, that's your choice but I do not feel that is a good habit to teach guys especially ones learning. Persistence, enduring tests and developing a thick skin is a MUCH more effective skill when it comes to cold-approach pickup. I'm actually surprised that some people here don't seem to get it.

If you are not being challenged during pick-ups then you are not aiming high enough (or you are just ridiculously good-looking).


Lol....If you think that persistence is such a powerful thing that if I walk away from a rejection, and you didnt and would end up sleeping with the chick due to your persistence, you're the one sounding inexperienced. Come on, you have to admit that this 4 strike rule has a low chance of working. No one is arguing that a chick could change her mind, we're arguing whether it is worth it. You keep avoiding saying how likely it is a girl changes her mind. Say so. Tell the guys the truth...its not likely but it happens. Something having a degree of success doesnt make it EFFICIENT.

If you approach each chick you like 4 times, you're being inefficient. And if you think you'll lay a chick after the 4th approach finally gives a good opening, you're either inexperienced or selling snake oil. My issue is, why approach 4 times for a good opening, when opening itself doesnt matter. As in, whether you fuck her or not, depends more so on logistics. There are so many variables to manage in dating/seduction...to reapproach for a good OPENING, is wasting time. I'd rather be challenged and "enduring" through later phases, ie logistics, LMR than a silly opening. You're telling guys to try to start a car 4 times, when they should learn to deal with driving the car. The car finally starts after 4 tries, which lets be honest, you cant say that this rule is even likely to get the "car" to start. But lets say it starts after 4 tries...now you gotta worry about how it drives. Why not find a car that starts ok, and focus on what's important....driving it.

Be honest, say the likelihood of this 4 strike rule finally getting a good opening. For every "rejection", roughly what % would come around? Could that time have been spent on approaching other chicks? For this to be a better alternative than a seperate approach, you'd have to be saying that a guy has a higher close rate for his "rejections" than his warm/cold approaches. Which is not true for anyone. If it is as you say simply not enough chicks in the venue so you gotta try harder, fine...then say that clearly, instead of preaching this rule. What you miss is that this persistance thing is no new concept. Everyone knows it. Just most understand the simple truth that you're time would be better spent on a new approach, than reengaging a bad one. If there are no other chicks around, sure do 10 approaches on the same chick. Knock yourself out. If there are other chicks, approach them instead. If you know noobs, you'll know they waste time on dead ends, time wasters and flakes. Why advise them to get caught in the BEGINNING fighting an uphill battle. I'd tell a guy to be persistent when she's on a date, when she's in bed. Not at the bar, when a good opening or not, means very little.


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 Post subject: Re: The 4-Strike Rule
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:00 am 
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CobraKaiDojo wrote:
That's not the mentality that I'm promoting here, what you mentioned is a desperate frame that displays scarcity mentality.


You have to understand the irony in calling my argument of not trying so damn hard and knowing when to move on "a desperate frame that displays scarcity mentality" whereas you call your "try everything in your power" abundance.

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 Post subject: Re: The 4-Strike Rule
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:04 am 
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I think this is great advice for guys who are starting out and suck at reading social cues. If I had cancer for every time someone sent me a PM about a situation where a girl is OBVIOUSLY not interested, or OBVIOUSLY interested and the guy is 100% oblivious and either wants to continue in spite of obvious rejection or simply left a keen girl to go home and flick the bean... well I'd probably die of aids.

Guys who ''don't know what to say'' or think of an approach as a win or lose situation that is absolute can learn some things from adopting this for a while and experimenting with it. Assuming autism is not involved here, doing this can help men with a lack of experience learn to properly distinguish social cues. Go in awkwardly and piss enough women off trying to talk to them 4x when they hate you, and it will become pretty clear to you pretty fast different re-occurring patterns and body language that comes along with a girl that just wants you to fuck off.

By this same token, go in 4x, enough times and get to see a few bitchy girls in a bad mood or busy, flip like a pancake because something put them in a better mood or they realized they were acting like a sociopath. This type of thing can happen with trying to move forward as well, if you get stuffed a few times and just end up being the male equivalent of a friendly cool fat chick that wants the D, it can work out from time to time and men can learn to properly see when they are making women uncomfortable through body language and when they are coming on too strong, by trying over and over, with the obvious blowouts teaching them where they really fucked up.

As for if this is some sort of masterful technique, I'm fairly skeptical, from my point of view once you know what you're doing it is almost immediately obvious if you can make it work or not. That's the thing though, just because it's obvious to me that a girl likes/hates me, doesn't mean some 18 year old kid fresh out of school trying to figure out how dating works is going to even have half a clue as to when he's wasting his time or when there is something there to work with.


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