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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 9:21 am 
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By now I’m sure all of you have heard of the shooting in Santa Barbara this past Friday by the deranged gunman Elliot Rodger. He was a sexually frustrated 22-year old virgin who took out his aggression on the 6 people he killed that tragic day. Before the shooting, he recorded this haunting video:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UL8h5UqNE2A[/youtube]
Quote:
Ever since I hit puberty, I’ve been forced to endure an existence of loneliness, rejection, and unfulfilled desires all because girls have never been attracted to me. Girls gave their affection, and sex, and love to other men, but never to me … In those years I had to rot in loneliness; it’s not fair.
Many of you may be able to silently relate to the things he says on some level. A huge portion of those seeking help from the PUA community have been through many of these same frustrations. I know I certainly used to. I used to feel frustrated and angry because I felt powerless. I saw myself as a victim. I felt sorry for myself. I was angry at the world. I even tried to kill myself.

And somewhere within the depths of my deeply disturbed mind, I wanted to take others with me - those that have "wronged" me by denying me the intimacy I so craved.

I used to think the exact same things Elliot Rodger thought. Every heterosexual man has a deep and intense desire to connect with women in a genuine way, but many of us distort our own interpretations of these desires through patriarchal social programming that tells us that we deserve to have hot women begging to suck our dicks. I was no different all those years ago.

In his 141-page manifesto, he wrote, "All I ever wanted was to love women, and in turn to be loved by them back."

Looking back at how I once was, I am deeply disturbed. I could have been Elliot Rodger. I could have let my own self-absorbed views take me over to follow a similar path. In fact I almost did.

However, Rodger and I took different paths after making fundamentally different choices. When I found out about the PUA community, I chose to make a change for myself through the intense journey of self-improvement and self-discovery that it offered. I realized that where there was a will, there was a way. I focused on changing myself. When Rodger found out about the PUA community, he chose to remain hateful of those who achieved the success he desired because he was absolutely convinced that his fate was decided by others.

Now, I'm not here to spout the predictable "This shit could have been prevented if he learned from us" rhetoric that other PUAs have preached. While this rhetoric is somewhat true, it doesn't address the core of the matter.

On the surface, PUA techniques just look like a bunch of manipulative methods to further objectify women and continue to trap men into the belief that their self-worth is based on the number of women they sleep with. Many of us break through this surface to see the real depth PUA stuff can offer, but a guy like Rodger could not have been fixed with just a few lessons. It comes to me as no surprise that he chose the PUA-Hate side of things.

All of us PUAs know about the PUA-Hate website. It's a forum dedicated to self-victimizing and criticizing the PUA community for its many flaws, as well as for its many philosophical differences from those who self-victimize.

Many of their criticisms are legitimate. The online marketing many of our "gurus" partake in are less than honorable, to say the least. As an experienced seduction teacher (yet a highly inexperienced marketer) myself, I've played around with a couple of these conscienceless marketing practices, too. However, I stand firm by the things I actually teach, and I believe that the differences between what I teach and what most other PUAs teach can mean the difference between turning out to be a misogynistic, entitled, self-serving sex addict who still retains most of the internal issues Elliot Rodger suffered from, and a mature man who seeks something greater than himself through genuine connections with women.

Our entire society and the representative surface of the PUA community send very problematic messages to young people as they develop their world views. These messages tell us that men are women are locked in some sort of gender war or, at the very least, that they're living in different worlds. They tell us that a person's value is entirely based on the attention and affection that the opposite gender gives them. They tell us that beautiful women are trophies to be won instead of human beings that we can relate to on so many levels.

If we all worked together to change these messages, the Elliot Rodgers of the world wouldn't have to end up so fucked up in the head. However, it's not a simple matter of sending all these troubled boys to PUA school. At the same time, it's not a simple matter of condemning the behaviors of someone like Elliot Rodger and telling men to focus on how their actions hurt other people while pointing the finger of blame just at misogyny. Both are steps that will help people, but it's not enough.

Allowing men to learn how to make themselves more attractive and pointing the finger of blame at misogyny is a good place as any to start, but we can do better than that. Before we even prioritize those solutions above anything else, we need to take a step back and address the epidemic of the external locus of control and the culture of ego.

If Elliot Rodger and I were so similar to begin with, why did he end up killing people and himself while I ended up a pretty successful PUA who tries to shove feminism down the throats of other PUAs?

For one thing, I never let my external locus of control get the better of me when push came to shove. When I hit rock bottom, I let an internal locus of control take its place. I allowed myself to believe that I could change not only my circumstances, but that I could and should do so through changing myself.

That "changing myself" part is a huge distinction that many people forego when it comes to taking matters into their own hands. That's where the culture of ego comes in. Your ego will tell you that you are perfect just the way you are, that you don't need to change yourself, and that the world needs to change to adapt to you. Putting your ego aside opens up the floodgates of self-discovery and improvement, and allows you to see and achieve your own boundless potential. Adopting and internal locus of control while holding on to ego can still result in a shooting; that's what Rodger did. He took matters into his own hands by actually doing something besides feeling sorry for himself, but it was his ego that stopped him from making an internal change. Instead he made a tragic external change by taking others' lives.

The messages we need to start drilling into people's heads while they're growing up in our society should not only include a propagation of an internal locus of control, but also to practice the shedding of our own egos, to think of solutions through a lens of self-change. It's not enough to simply empower our youth; we must also make them realize that they themselves must "be the change they wish to see in the world," as Gandhi said.

From that fundamental mental starting point, learning pickup and compassion for women will lead a man to the real love and connection he so craves while giving women the same freedom to do so.

If only Elliot could have seen these deeper lessons from the PUA community before dismissing it entirely.

R.I.P. to all the victims of this horrible tragedy.


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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 7:41 pm 
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No dude. Don't feel sorry for the guy, don't say that PUA could have saved him. This is a pathetic fucking excuse for a person. He is not 'some poor AFC who couldn't find his path'. I like your stuff and have signed up to your newsletters but I think you really got this one wrong. You could have ended up as Elliott Rodger? Why, do you have psychopathic tendencies and like to hurt people when you don't get your way?

No. There's a difference between this scum and a guy who can't get girls. The Game features a few characters who are older than him and have never kissed a girl; they don't go killing people.

edit: although after reading this you linked http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/davide-mas ... 86512.html
I think I see where you're coming from. It's about not seeing women as objects who owe us their bodies and getting out of this weird mindset? Maybe society does skew our views on women, sex and relationships. I definitely think this guy had something wrong with him, though, and that you (not knowing you) wouldn't necessarily turn into this freak if you hadn't found PUA material.


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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 8:02 am 
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I skimmed through his 141 page bitch fest and watched a few of his videos about the universe being against him. What a little twerp. I look at it the same way you do Chief and just think about how someone could have helped this kid. I strongly feel that had this kid come reached out to someone instead of thinking everyone is out to get him, this all wouldn't have happened. Unfortunately, you can't help someone who doesn't want to help themselves. This kid enjoyed being miserable.

From what I got out of it, I don't think this kid is mentally ill. I believe he just had a fucked up way of thinking. I can't stand when people just blame mental illness for their actions. That's such a cop out.

First, his sense of entitlement is DISGUSTING. This kid thinks that everyone owes him something. My guess, his parents probably spoiled the fuck out of him his entire life. He's a little brat who was fed everything on a silver platter. He's got (had) nice clothes, a nice car, lives(d) in California and I guarantee that he thinks the world owed him all of that shit too. Most guys don't want to go out and put in the hard work to actually get good with women. This kid was no different. He thinks women should just be handed to him because he drives a BMW and wears Armani sunglasses.

Second, he's so attention and acceptance seeking that it literally made me laugh my ass off. I guess I just can't think the same way he does. The terrible thing is that people like this get the attention they want because the media jumps all over crazy shit like that. Had he maybe stuck around the "pick up community" for a bit longer, he would have gotten rid of this belief that happiness comes from validation from other people.

Third, just his beliefs in general. Honestly, from what I read in his rant, I blame his parents. The way they raised him is like supporting a drug addict. This kid didn't appreciate shit. His mom paid $900 a month for him to live in a college town and all he did was complain about it. Complained about only being able to buy ONE Georgio Armani shirt from the designer clothing store cause he wasn't rich enough. His standards for himself we're so high and he was such a narcissist, but he was lazy as fuck. From the day he was born, everything he every wanted was just given to him. This kid needed to be slapped around by the streets not babied by his mother. He was a boy who thought he deserved everything a real man does.

He had all these hopes and dreams of this great, fantastic life that was just superficial. And he didn't have the one thing he needed to make it happen anyways... a hard work ethic. This is a huge problem with alot of today's youth. They think everything should just be done for them and if it's not, life isn't fair.

This kid is just a pathetic piece of shit and you can't blame anything but his beliefs for it. Maybe if he had spent those thousand of dollars on a mentor instead of lottery tickets, this shit wouldn't have happened. Innocent people lost their lives because of this ungrateful little prick.


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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 10:16 am 
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Quote:
No dude. Don't feel sorry for the guy, don't say that PUA could have saved him. This is a pathetic fucking excuse for a person. He is not 'some poor AFC who couldn't find his path'. I like your stuff and have signed up to your newsletters but I think you really got this one wrong. You could have ended up as Elliott Rodger? Why, do you have psychopathic tendencies and like to hurt people when you don't get your way?

No. There's a difference between this scum and a guy who can't get girls. The Game features a few characters who are older than him and have never kissed a girl; they don't go killing people.
You may have missed my point a bit. I wasn't trying to express any sympathy for the guy. It's just the opposite. I blamed Elliot Rodger for two main things:
1. Not choosing to have an internal locus of control, which isn't exclusively a PUA thing. It's a simple human choice we all make on a daily basis.
and
2. Letting his stubborn ego dictate his behavior instead of allowing himself to see that he should change himself.


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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 6:26 pm 
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Okay guys here it goes. Elliot Rodgers was a terrible person because he thought that the world owed him everything, even though he already had wealth, nice clothes, drove a BMW etc etc. I, am a terrible person because I do not think that the world owes me a goddamn thing, conversely, I think I owe myself everything. I owe myself financial independence, physical health, as well as success with romantic and familial relationships. I am, unlike Elliot, willing to work as hard as possible to achieve these things. I have a shallow seeded, but very strong, sense of self loathing because of my own severe mental illness (I feel the need to cry at all times, it began in late August 2008 and it has never abated. It is part of me and yet as much a part of me as cancer). I do not have an internal locus of control, mine is external. It exists in my brain, but it directs my actions, I do not. I hate myself because I have internalized all of this self-help stuff but have yet to act on it because, well, I really cannot. I am a bad person because I do not have the capacity, yet, to do what you Chief, Adam Lyons, Sinn, Gambler, RSDTyler (Owen) and the rest have told me to do. I have attained the humility to change my own habits so that I can live how I wish to live, yet the mistake I made almost six years ago continues to hold on to me. I wish to let it go, I have tried, I want to so desperately. This narrative that I have lived is a bullshit one, my problems are not part of who I am, as Eckhart Tolle said that they can become, if we allow them to be. Elliot Rodgers was a shitty human being. I am the same, for entirely different reasons. What good is it to be aware of one's personal gifts and yet be robbed of the ability to use them?

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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 7:13 pm 
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He didn't go insane because he couldn't get laid.

He couldn't get laid because he was insane.

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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 7:31 pm 
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Quote:
He didn't go insane because he couldn't get laid.

He couldn't get laid because he was insane.
Indeed.

Dude didn't even look ugly. If he was wealthy and drove a nice car who the hell could he blame except for himself? High-school is when you can't get out of that pit because it's all about popularity there and you can't just dig yourself out of being unpopular in this period. It's incredibly hard but college? Work? Going out to clubs? Shit man, you have so many opportunities to actually go out and be a person that many would find socially acceptable or to fully be you and confident. This guy had more than a nut loose if he couldn't find a single girl to get with and i'm more than certain the women he approached noticed this a mile off.

Honestly, I was going to say this before in another thread but I decided against it(Huge wall of text) but I think he was gay and approached women with the shallow mentality that he thought he should have a woman, not because he wanted to be with one but because he thought he had to have one. He couldn't grasp the simple concept of attraction or why he should be attracted to someone besides what it was at the most simplistic and basic level from an evolutionary standpoint: Sex. Procreation. Partnership/sexual relationship between a man and woman. Due to the fact he was gay he became frustrated and couldn't accept it as it went against his idea of what he believed attraction to be all about: Men and women. This frustration and lack of attracting a woman due to his latent homosexuality condensed into a rage pointed at those he blamed for it. It's possible, I would theorise, that he actually felt the need to sleep with a woman to prove to himself that he wasn't gay.

It's just a thought, I haven't read his memoires or much into it besides the videos but the impression I was given from just watching him talk and describe his feelings and his idea of the world is that he was a psychopath and could not grasp simple concepts, instead emulating from others what he perceived to be normal. I also got the impression that he was actually gay. Again, from a 10minute video it's quite a long reach to jump to, but that's just the impression I was left with. I'm not saying being gay is the reason for his rampage; i'm saying the way he handled it turned him into a crazed lunatic and focused all those feelings on a single point: Women and "Cockblockers" for his inability to sleep with a woman.


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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 2:24 am 
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Great points made... I feel a lot of men could relate what he was going through. I think the PUA community could be of help to him. From my knowledge he was actually ANTI PUA... (not 100% positive though)

He needed help.

At the end of the day you're hopeless if you love being miserable


I went on a little rant about it if you wanna see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfMJUyOfCcM

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 4:20 pm 
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A couple of thoughts:

1) While I think the PUA community is being unfairly targeted in the wake of this tragedy, I think the PUA community can be more eloquent. By this, I mean guru's exploiting the tragedy to sell their stuff.

2) Can we make it clear that nice is not a euphemism for being a creep. You can be a nice guy and get girls. Being nice means being cordial, respectful, understanding, and sensitive. It means doing something for others, because you like that person and you don't expect anything back. Being nice, means people feel good after talking to you. Being nice does not mean letting people walk over you or being that guy who stands against the wall and talks to nobody. Being nice is not the same as being painfully shy.

3)I think PUA's need to show how they are making guys think about women differently, and in a positive way. So, I'm no PUA by any stretch of the imagination, but I have taken some key lessons from lurking these boards, reading the Game, and watching stuff on YouTube. Two key points: women owe you nothing, a woman is under no obligation to sleep with. You're not entitled to jack.The faster you understand this, the better off you are. It is OK to be rejected, move on (a lesson I think every man should know by the 8th grade). Second, I have a better understanding from woman's viewpoint. A night out can be a terrifying thing, the second she walks in a bar, she'll be bound to be hit on, and in the worst case scenario she'll be harassed or even raped. So when I talk to girls, it is a process of building a rapport, gaining trust, and building attraction. Also, I don't want to hangout with somebody that is mopey and self-pitying, whining that the world is conspiring against them. So, why would a woman.

4)Being of Indian descent, I was shocked when Rodger talked about how "disgusted" he was when he saw an Indian guy with two white girls. Again, women don't owe you sh!t, and they can date whatever guy they want, regardless of race. White guys, beautiful women come in all colors.

5)I notice when mass shootings like this occur, we talk about how the shooter was insane and mentally challenged. Keep this in mind, the mentally disabled are more likely to be victims of violence than the perpetrators of violence.


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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 5:58 pm 
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From what I've been reading, he essentially had a crush on a female friend he had in high school (very, very attractive girl - I've never slept with one as hot as her) and pretty much wanted another girl that looked just like her.

Who knows, he may have even had options, but it seems like he was obsessed with a certain type of girl, and the status that came with it.


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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 6:33 pm 
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Quote:
He didn't go insane because he couldn't get laid.

He couldn't get laid because he was insane.

Wrong. Both factors intensified one another in what can be called a"spurious infinity". There's already a lot of speculation as to what these two factors were constituted by. From his Eurasian heritage, repressed homosexuality, capitalist and Nice Guy entitlement. The list goes on an on.

What's important for all of us to remember here on the forums is that this guy didn't keep women at a distance from his self-identity. A side-effect of learning GAME is that its practitioners have a more detached and consequence-indifferent towards women, which is ironic when it comes to the practice of PURSUING women. The "back-handed compliment" (i.e. the neg) exemplifies this perfectly.

This guy did the exact opposite of what PUAs do. He was so attached to the idea of being with a women that he self-sabotaged himself, which led him towards his psychosis and eventually to go on a killing spree.

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 6:39 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
He didn't go insane because he couldn't get laid.

He couldn't get laid because he was insane.

Wrong. Both factors intensified one another in what can be called a"spurious infinity". There's already a lot of speculation as to what these two factors were constituted by. From his Eurasian heritage, repressed homosexuality, capitalist and Nice Guy entitlement. The list goes on an on.

What's important for all of us to remember here on the forums is that this guy didn't keep women at a distance from his self-identity. A side-effect of learning GAME is that its practitioners have a more detached and consequence-indifferent towards women, which is ironic when it comes to the practice of PURSUING women. The "back-handed compliment" (i.e. the neg) exemplifies this perfectly.

This guy did the exact opposite of what PUAs do. He was so attached to the idea of being with a women that he self-sabotaged himself, which led him towards his psychosis and eventually to go on a killing spree.
Wrong.

lol sorry couldn't resist. But your post doesn't prove anything just like my post doesn't either.

We are both speculating.

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 7:40 pm 
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This is not the first time something like this happened, i can understand this guy although i by no means condone his actions or his way of thinking. He was desperate, he had everything society told him he needed to get women and yet he was still a virgin, never kissed a girl, never ever had another being acknowledge his worth. His teens have passed and no dice, i see where he was coming from, i see it everywhere around me, everybody seems like it comes effortlessly to him, its an illusion of course but it sure as hell aint looking like one when all your friends are making out with HBs and you are stuck in the corner by yourself. Personally i took it as a hint that i need to change but not all guys are ready to cast blame on themselves. Perhaps the fact that he was rich, famous and somewhat good looking may have actually contribute to his mental breakdown. Fat, broke and unemployed i at the very least know what to do to get better. So he turned to the PUA as his last resort, and even that failed him as PUA is all about taking responsibility which this guy apparently was unable to do. And then he goes to PUA hate where he can wallow in self pity and feed on negative emotions of all those failures until finally he snaps, the end.


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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 7:45 pm 
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Quote:

Wrong.

lol sorry couldn't resist. But your post doesn't prove anything just like my post doesn't either.

We are both speculating.

Oh shit, I was being an asshole. I'm sorry man. It's wrong for me to say you were wrong, because it's true that he was unstable by nature. I'm trying to use Elliot Rodgers as an example of a specific problem that a lot of men run into when learning game.

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 7:47 pm 
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