Epic thread. I'm totally giving this a sticky.
I'd also like to contribute the post that initially forever changed my perspective on NLP used in seduction:
Even though I'm not so hot on the very idea that SS exists...
I do think it's very different from every other school of pickup, so it probably deserves its own sub-forum.
I will say right now, though, that SS is completely unecessary for any PUA to learn. Sure, I may know some SS and have used it before, but I still think it's the "dark side" of pickup, and is highly manipulative in nature. Ross Jeffries uses the justification that all communication is manipulation, but to whomever is reading this: do you really believe that?
Sure, a LOT of communication is based on manipulation, but what is PICKUP ultimately about? Is it just about getting into your target's pants? No - it's learning how to connect with others, becomming social, in a sense being "one" with everyone else. The goal of NLP is to control others, and I believe that's the exact opposite mindset of the philosophy of what pickup has developed into.
The only thing you can really control is yourself, and once you realize that, you game shall be a LOT tighter...without NLP.
Dude, I don't know where to start with this one...
Actually I do - as you pointed out in the very last sentence, you can only control yourself
so just about everything else in your argument against SS is redundent. I could stop right there, but I love the sound of my own font - so here goes
. (By the way - where I say 'You', I don't mean you personally, Chief - I mean anyone reading. Don't want to get personal here!
) Though I would like to know where you got the information that the 'Goal of NLP is to control others'. This is just plain wrong.
SS IS about getting into someone's pants, but so is every other method. Fact. Lets be honest and can the false nobility for a second, this is what we're all interested in really. If it was solely about "Being one with everyone else" then there wouldn't be AA and the M3 model would be the M2 model. But unlike most other methods, 'Making the beast with 2 backs' can't be your sole motivation for interacting with a woman. In fact this is why a lot of guys who usually use other methods fall flat when they try to use SS. Ross has actually built in failsafes at the neurological level that ensure anyone approaching a woman with negative or underhand goals will get discovered real quick and blown out. Do any other methods have this safety feature? Don't think so.
But let's look at 'Manipulative'. Ross has never endorsed lying - in fact if your game is tight you'll never need to lie. (And if you do lie to women, it's not because of Ross, SS or any other method or guru. It's because you're a tool. Yes you are.) If you have approached a woman with the intention of connecting with her unconscious mind and you're carrying anything negative or destructive, like I said above you'll be found out and booted from the set. This means you CAN'T approach with the sole aim of getting into her pants. In fact, if it's really communication and being socially adept you're really after, SS is an awesomely powerful tool. NLP is ALL ABOUT communication.
Also to 'Manipulate' you'd have to be out to bend the woman to your will, somehow subjugate her. Well, that's just not possible. If it was, I'd be dating Jessica Alba, robbing banks, helping myself to cars off the lot and eating for free at all the best restaurtants.
So if an SS practitioner doesn't lie, can't have negative intent, and is incapable of making a woman do something she doesn't really want to do - where's the manipulation? In fact, in SS you're supposed to make the woman feel good. You're supposed to listen to her conversation and learn about her. You're supposed to make her feel important (And NO - that's not AFC or 'Beta' if you do it right. It's good manners!). And it ALL has to be done genuinely and sincerely
in order to work. And ALL guys should learn this lesson - for social AND seduction reasons.
The thing here is all about your frame. Here's a good frame for you, especially considering the idea that SS is somehow 'Dark side'.
Imagine a method where you target the woman you like with jibes and subtle putdowns. You target this woman you don't know and attack her self esteem, right there in front of her best friends, and move her from the heart of her circle of friends to the edge, and then show her only YOU have the power to let her back in. You make her doubt her social position and her own confidence so much that she'll do just about anything to get back with her group - up to and including getting with the newly arrived 'Alpha Male' in the big furry hat. She gives him a number, or maybe even sleeps with him, in an attempt to reassert her identity. (The next morning she realises he's not quite as 'Alpha' as she remembers and gets 'Buyers remorse' - and 'Flakes' on him.) Some call that 'Negging'. Some would call it emotional cruelty towards a lovely woman you've never met - just to get in her pants. There's negative intent there, ("Is she always like this?" - All her friends laugh. Come on, how would YOU feel? If SHE did that to a guy, we'd all be calling her a bitch! It's enough to give a guy AA, hehehe) some would say you're enticing a woman to do something she wouldn't usually do in order to get her number, and standing there in a snakeskin shirt and flying goggles - totally out of character with the stuff usually worn in your day job as accountant - the PUA is definitely pretending to be something he's not (In order to gain interest and make her want to be a part of your tribe): ie he's lying. So - where's the manipulation there I wonder...
I don't necessarily subscribe to that point of view, by the way, (though it makes you think!), and in fact I don't believe ANY method has any inherent moral value - Good or bad. But it just shows you how you can interpret things, if you make the effort.