Killing Off NLP Stereotypes


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:50 pm 
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I would like to offer this paradigm of NLP/SS use. I think this will allow us to clear the air and open up a new opportunity for our fellow PUAs to see the benefits, responsibilities, and unique offerings that NLP has.

Some would say using NLP in seduction is like using cheat codes for a video game. I respectfully disagree. NLP and SS users still flub-up in their game. You can imagine, it's one thing to know an "instantaneous bond" pattern, and it's another thing to get into the kind of rapport necessary to run such a pattern. The use of NLP and SS still require heightened social skills and the ability to approach, open, and keep interest. Now, do we NLPers go in knowing that once we get to a certain point in the game that we're going to rock a woman's world and share amazing experiences and feelings with her, simply by being allowed to step into her world? Yes, we do. But getting their is still the same, fun, challenge as it is for everyone else.

Others may say that NLP is manipulative. I agree. All PUAs are manipulators. That's what sets us apart from the AFCs in the world. We KNOW how to flick all the right switches, and we intentionally set out with the intent of doing so. Whether your a DYD, MM, Natural Game, SS/NLP, or any other method of PUA, you leave nothing to chance. Getting "lucky" is for the AFCs and AMOG-wanna-bes of the world.

See, a difference that can be seen in NLPers is that we understand a crucial element of female psychology: they don't like "us" per se (I'm not saying other style PUAs don't know this, I'm simply speaking from my perspective and observations of fellow NLP PUAs). They like the feelings and experiences we create for them. When a woman says "I like Martin", it's short-hand for saying "when I look at, think of, hear, or feel Martin, certain, pleasurable, wonderful things happen inside me that I let take control". As an NLP user, we simply cut the process down by helping her allow those experiences to occur faster and at greater intensity. Basically, if they've felt an emotional, spiritual connection with someone before, we re-create that and intensify it in order to give it our own signature.

Is there the threat of NLP being misused? Rummage through the NLP threads on this forum alone and you will see the answer is "yes". That's the beautiful thing about it. There is a balance to our system. You really want to use a pattern on a woman that is going to make her obsessive over you? You really want her to want to spend ALL of her time with you? Go ahead. I will not provide the means, but let me tell you from myself and most other NLP/SS users out here, there is a price to be paid for the arrogant, selfish, and ignorant misuse of this technology. As Cecil B. Demille once said "it is impossible to break the law. We can only break ourselves against the law". The corruption of your own mind, the degradation and perversion of your misguided behaviors will be your own, self-inflicted punishment for the abuse of the NLP toolset.

Brings me to another topic. NLP as a seduction tool is just one of the many facets of the technology as a whole. What's the point of being able to seduce women by these methods, if you don't know how to use a lot of the same methods to land a good, high-paying career with a strong interview? What's the use if you can't snap yourself out of your own ruts? Keep the bond with your family and friends stronger? Help others at their request to make positive changes in their lives?

As a well-rounded NLP practitioner, you will have so much more to offer to the people around you that having a charismatic, open, be-attracted-to-me aura will come naturally. It truly is a wonderful thing to know you can step into someone else's shoes at a moment's notice and not just live moments of their lives with them, but actually FEEL those moments with them, and with their permission, make those feelings, and their lives, even better. This is when you will truly be known to others as a "Magic Man" :D

As an offering to discussion, I would like to hear other NLP user's paradigms, great experiences, and methods. Let's show our fellow PUA brothers that there's more to this outstanding toolset than the "point to self" and "BJ pattern" lol.

Carpe Everything!

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:06 pm 
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Does understanding how to manipulate an instrument to make sweet music make it wrong studying music and why/how to make it as sweet as possible with as little notes played as possible ?

Does knowing the bible, and all other holy scriptures make it wrong or manipulative to enter a discussion of the principles of religion with a person who does not have such understanding ?
Since you can in effect, say "Well, the bible says this," and leave out the parts of the quote which does not suit your needs.

People do it, still.
But, I'm sorry, I shouldn't bring religion into this.
It often clouds the judgmental abilities of those emotionally tied with the said religion. It's not a flaw.
It just seems to be a much to heated area to use it as an example, but I'll leave it there, since I think it can help someone understand my opinions.

Peace ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:32 pm 
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great post bro.

it's interesting to note how some of the really pro guys like swingcat and style, not to mention hypnotica all have backgrounds in nlp.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:35 pm 
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In my opinion, everyone is exactly equally manipulative, whether consciously or subconsciously. We all do things to (attempt to) get a response from our environment that serves our needs the most at that instance. The difference between the average guy, and the guys that learns and applies these psychological techniques, is that the educated guy's manipulation is better planned and more powerful.

And by the way, I 100% agree with OP.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:06 am 
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HypnoPUA wrote:
Others may say that NLP is manipulative. I agree. All PUAs are manipulators. That's what sets us apart from the AFCs in the world. We KNOW how to flick all the right switches, and we intentionally set out with the intent of doing so. Whether your a DYD, MM, Natural Game, SS/NLP, or any other method of PUA, you leave nothing to chance. Getting "lucky" is for the AFCs and AMOG-wanna-bes of the world.


Let's verify that we're defining terms similarly to ensure an honest and productive conversation. This statement that you've made seems geared toward shutting down a holier-than-thou attitude by implicating the person to whom you're speaking in the same behaviour. (ie: they can't condemn you without condemning themselves functioning definition of manipulation is creating a mental change in another person without their consent and/or without concern for their best interests. Your own statements suggest that you consider more benign applications to be manipulation as well. For those applications, I would customarily use the word "persuasion." When somebody accuses practitioners of NLP of manipulation, they are probably NOT suggesting persuasion-by-another-name. They are probably suggesting something more sinister.

Now, I can address my own objection. Most (all?) varieties of pickup DO have practitioners that run the gamut from manipulation to persuasion. Is it possible that NLP has a greater share of manipulators? Possibly, but I think that's mostly irrelevant. It probably IS relevant, however, that the mode by which NLP works appears to have a stronger subconscious element than most other pickup methodologies. (I could be wrong about that. Refutation welcome.) In many people's eyes, myself among them, that seems to violate the principle of acting with or without the subject's consent and so creates the appearance that NLP is more manipulative than persuasive.

Put another way, it might be simpler just to ask, "Is it right to communicate directly with a person's emotions without allowing them the opportunity to filter the communication through conscious language processing?" I guarantee you that many people, even in the pickup community, would say, "No. It isn't right." I'll backpedal just a little bit and say that for most people, this judgment of rightness or wrongness probably doesn't extend too far beyond themselves. I'd feel pretty upset if a PUA used NLP to game away a girl I was dating; I also don't feel comfortable enough with it that I think I could use much NLP myself. If other people want, though, well... Use it responsibly, fellows. That's strong magic you're throwing around.

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 Post subject: Fine Points
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:21 am 
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Ironically, many PUAs I've met that don't use NLP subscribe to the "stop means no, no doesn't always mean no" line of thought. As an NLPer, no means no, period. I think this is where a lot of the misconception stems from:

The idea of persuasion without consent is, in my experience, virtually impossible to get away with. From personal experience, if you don't have consent in one way or another to proceed, the gates are in fact shut and there's no way to bribe the guards, so to speak. We don't automatically bypass someone's critical factor, so much as we say and do things that the mind finds pleasing, and therefore allows us to do. We HAVE to gain a certain element of permission before we can proceed. Going from "hello" to some kind of canned "sleep with me now" pattern simply won't cut it.

I agree, I wouldn't want an NLPer gaming a girl I'm working on either. For that matter, I wouldn't want an MM, StyleLife, DYD, or any other PUA flubbing-up my game plan. I mean chances are, any woman you're gaming is seeing other men anyways, NLPer or not, you know? None of us are special, we are merely individual in our behaviors. That is what dictates the over-all themes, feedback, and successes of our seductions.

At the end of the day, we are all creating feelings for those lucky ladies in our lives. My point, whether liked or disliked, is to share our resources to improve our individual game. Regardless of whether you use it or not, I want to see everyone here succeed. For those that find there is possible usefulness for NLP in their methods, they should have access to those resources without being made to feel like snakes in the grass or lowly, evil, manipulators. It's up to NLP users to demonstrate through our own ethical, positive behaviors, that there is a resource here for one and all that when applied, can benefit those around us.

Great, well-rounded posts guys!!! I've got a party this weekend, I'll be field-testing some great routines and DHVs. I'll post my findings to the FR thread on Sunday or Monday.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:40 am 
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Epic thread. I'm totally giving this a sticky.

I'd also like to contribute the post that initially forever changed my perspective on NLP used in seduction:

ChocolateThunder wrote:
Chief wrote:
Even though I'm not so hot on the very idea that SS exists...

I do think it's very different from every other school of pickup, so it probably deserves its own sub-forum.

I will say right now, though, that SS is completely unecessary for any PUA to learn. Sure, I may know some SS and have used it before, but I still think it's the "dark side" of pickup, and is highly manipulative in nature. Ross Jeffries uses the justification that all communication is manipulation, but to whomever is reading this: do you really believe that?

Sure, a LOT of communication is based on manipulation, but what is PICKUP ultimately about? Is it just about getting into your target's pants? No - it's learning how to connect with others, becomming social, in a sense being "one" with everyone else. The goal of NLP is to control others, and I believe that's the exact opposite mindset of the philosophy of what pickup has developed into.

The only thing you can really control is yourself, and once you realize that, you game shall be a LOT tighter...without NLP.


Dude, I don't know where to start with this one...

Actually I do - as you pointed out in the very last sentence, you can only control yourself so just about everything else in your argument against SS is redundent. I could stop right there, but I love the sound of my own font - so here goes :P. (By the way - where I say 'You', I don't mean you personally, Chief - I mean anyone reading. Don't want to get personal here! ;) ) Though I would like to know where you got the information that the 'Goal of NLP is to control others'. This is just plain wrong.

SS IS about getting into someone's pants, but so is every other method. Fact. Lets be honest and can the false nobility for a second, this is what we're all interested in really. If it was solely about "Being one with everyone else" then there wouldn't be AA and the M3 model would be the M2 model. But unlike most other methods, 'Making the beast with 2 backs' can't be your sole motivation for interacting with a woman. In fact this is why a lot of guys who usually use other methods fall flat when they try to use SS. Ross has actually built in failsafes at the neurological level that ensure anyone approaching a woman with negative or underhand goals will get discovered real quick and blown out. Do any other methods have this safety feature? Don't think so.

But let's look at 'Manipulative'. Ross has never endorsed lying - in fact if your game is tight you'll never need to lie. (And if you do lie to women, it's not because of Ross, SS or any other method or guru. It's because you're a tool. Yes you are.) If you have approached a woman with the intention of connecting with her unconscious mind and you're carrying anything negative or destructive, like I said above you'll be found out and booted from the set. This means you CAN'T approach with the sole aim of getting into her pants. In fact, if it's really communication and being socially adept you're really after, SS is an awesomely powerful tool. NLP is ALL ABOUT communication.

Also to 'Manipulate' you'd have to be out to bend the woman to your will, somehow subjugate her. Well, that's just not possible. If it was, I'd be dating Jessica Alba, robbing banks, helping myself to cars off the lot and eating for free at all the best restaurtants.

So if an SS practitioner doesn't lie, can't have negative intent, and is incapable of making a woman do something she doesn't really want to do - where's the manipulation? In fact, in SS you're supposed to make the woman feel good. You're supposed to listen to her conversation and learn about her. You're supposed to make her feel important (And NO - that's not AFC or 'Beta' if you do it right. It's good manners!). And it ALL has to be done genuinely and sincerely in order to work. And ALL guys should learn this lesson - for social AND seduction reasons.

The thing here is all about your frame. Here's a good frame for you, especially considering the idea that SS is somehow 'Dark side'.

Imagine a method where you target the woman you like with jibes and subtle putdowns. You target this woman you don't know and attack her self esteem, right there in front of her best friends, and move her from the heart of her circle of friends to the edge, and then show her only YOU have the power to let her back in. You make her doubt her social position and her own confidence so much that she'll do just about anything to get back with her group - up to and including getting with the newly arrived 'Alpha Male' in the big furry hat. She gives him a number, or maybe even sleeps with him, in an attempt to reassert her identity. (The next morning she realises he's not quite as 'Alpha' as she remembers and gets 'Buyers remorse' - and 'Flakes' on him.) Some call that 'Negging'. Some would call it emotional cruelty towards a lovely woman you've never met - just to get in her pants. There's negative intent there, ("Is she always like this?" - All her friends laugh. Come on, how would YOU feel? If SHE did that to a guy, we'd all be calling her a bitch! It's enough to give a guy AA, hehehe) some would say you're enticing a woman to do something she wouldn't usually do in order to get her number, and standing there in a snakeskin shirt and flying goggles - totally out of character with the stuff usually worn in your day job as accountant - the PUA is definitely pretending to be something he's not (In order to gain interest and make her want to be a part of your tribe): ie he's lying. So - where's the manipulation there I wonder...

I don't necessarily subscribe to that point of view, by the way, (though it makes you think!), and in fact I don't believe ANY method has any inherent moral value - Good or bad. But it just shows you how you can interpret things, if you make the effort.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 4:02 pm 
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Bravo! The stadium is filled with wild applause :D

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:24 am 
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NLP is a state of mind. Hypnosis is nothing more than communicating ideas across success-fully to the unconscious.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:50 pm 
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So what your perception of NLP is, Hypnotica, is that NLP is the frame of Mind, while Hypnosis is the means of communicating it ?

(I wonder, have you read "Monsters and Magical Sticks: There's no such thing as hypnosis?" ?)

I can agree...

But then again NLP also seems to be a collection of techniques that seems to be meant to direct the unconscious through the conscious, by guiding the conscious... Hypnosis seems to me to be more of a direct communication with the unconscious,
(which seems to be why it is so hard to explain hypnosis, since so much of our communication may have an unthought impact upon the unconscious of the other person that by defining it as controlling another person's unconscious would mean all communication is, per definition, hypnosis.)

It's a bit difficult to have a "normal" Aristotelian definition of something that seems to be so heavily influenced by non-Aristotelian logic and other aspects of General Semantics. (as presented by Korzybski)


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:00 am 
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HypnoPUA wrote:
Submitted For Your Approval:

I would like to offer this paradigm of NLP/SS use. I think this will allow us to clear the air and open up a new opportunity for our fellow PUAs to see the benefits, responsibilities, and unique offerings that NLP has.

Some would say using NLP in seduction is like using cheat codes for a video game. I respectfully disagree. NLP and SS users still flub-up in their game. You can imagine, it's one thing to know an "instantaneous bond" pattern, and it's another thing to get into the kind of rapport necessary to run such a pattern. The use of NLP and SS still require heightened social skills and the ability to approach, open, and keep interest. Now, do we NLPers go in knowing that once we get to a certain point in the game that we're going to rock a woman's world and share amazing experiences and feelings with her, simply by being allowed to step into her world? Yes, we do. But getting their is still the same, fun, challenge as it is for everyone else.

Others may say that NLP is manipulative. I agree. All PUAs are manipulators. That's what sets us apart from the AFCs in the world. We KNOW how to flick all the right switches, and we intentionally set out with the intent of doing so. Whether your a DYD, MM, Natural Game, SS/NLP, or any other method of PUA, you leave nothing to chance. Getting "lucky" is for the AFCs and AMOG-wanna-bes of the world.

See, a difference that can be seen in NLPers is that we understand a crucial element of female psychology: they don't like "us" per se (I'm not saying other style PUAs don't know this, I'm simply speaking from my perspective and observations of fellow NLP PUAs). They like the feelings and experiences we create for them. When a woman says "I like Martin", it's short-hand for saying "when I look at, think of, hear, or feel Martin, certain, pleasurable, wonderful things happen inside me that I let take control". As an NLP user, we simply cut the process down by helping her allow those experiences to occur faster and at greater intensity. Basically, if they've felt an emotional, spiritual connection with someone before, we re-create that and intensify it in order to give it our own signature.

Is there the threat of NLP being misused? Rummage through the NLP threads on this forum alone and you will see the answer is "yes". That's the beautiful thing about it. There is a balance to our system. You really want to use a pattern on a woman that is going to make her obsessive over you? You really want her to want to spend ALL of her time with you? Go ahead. I will not provide the means, but let me tell you from myself and most other NLP/SS users out here, there is a price to be paid for the arrogant, selfish, and ignorant misuse of this technology. As Cecil B. Demille once said "it is impossible to break the law. We can only break ourselves against the law". The corruption of your own mind, the degradation and perversion of your misguided behaviors will be your own, self-inflicted punishment for the abuse of the NLP toolset.

Brings me to another topic. NLP as a seduction tool is just one of the many facets of the technology as a whole. What's the point of being able to seduce women by these methods, if you don't know how to use a lot of the same methods to land a good, high-paying career with a strong interview? What's the use if you can't snap yourself out of your own ruts? Keep the bond with your family and friends stronger? Help others at their request to make positive changes in their lives?

As a well-rounded NLP practitioner, you will have so much more to offer to the people around you that having a charismatic, open, be-attracted-to-me aura will come naturally. It truly is a wonderful thing to know you can step into someone else's shoes at a moment's notice and not just live moments of their lives with them, but actually FEEL those moments with them, and with their permission, make those feelings, and their lives, even better. This is when you will truly be known to others as a "Magic Man" :D

As an offering to discussion, I would like to hear other NLP user's paradigms, great experiences, and methods. Let's show our fellow PUA brothers that there's more to this outstanding toolset than the "point to self" and "BJ pattern" lol.

Carpe Everything!


How long have you been using Speed Seduction?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:16 pm 
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I've been a master practitioner of NLP for 4 years and some change now. I understand the methods in SS, as they are NLP methods, simply fit to a specific niche.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:11 am 
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im totally gonna try out NLP

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:29 am 
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Quote:
Is there the threat of NLP being misused? Rummage through the NLP threads on this forum alone and you will see the answer is "yes". That's the beautiful thing about it. There is a balance to our system. You really want to use a pattern on a woman that is going to make her obsessive over you? You really want her to want to spend ALL of her time with you? Go ahead. I will not provide the means, but let me tell you from myself and most other NLP/SS users out here, there is a price to be paid for the arrogant, selfish, and ignorant misuse of this technology. As Cecil B. Demille once said "it is impossible to break the law. We can only break ourselves against the law". The corruption of your own mind, the degradation and perversion of your misguided behaviors will be your own, self-inflicted punishment for the abuse of the NLP toolset.





Yea, that paragraph was really insightful, and it's great learning that NLP and SS can really be used as a way of offering even more value to others.

Nonetheless, I still have the child like, mischeivous mindset inside me of wanting to play with fire and learn tricks that Derren Brown does. I will follow through all my goals tho, and become that top person with abundance. I'll keep the message from this paragraph to my heart on my journey tho. It was really insightful. Thanks!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:20 pm 
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i like how some people call NLP evil, it's quite humorous to me really. NLP is simply a deeper understanding of psychology and human interaction and connection. sure, it could be used for unscrupulous purposes, but it is not in its nature evil. it is simply a discovery of a deeper/higher level of communication, of something that can be as wonderful as bad.

take a nailgun for instance. a wonderful tool that helps people to construct houses and such much faster than hammering things in by hand. it is a great benefit, right? well, what if, while a construction worker is working, he randomly turns and begins shooting his buddy with it. how horrible! the nailgun is a refined instrument, which can greatly expand the frontiers of potential. it can also be used to shoot people. that does not make it evil (you could hit people with hammers too), it just means it must be treated with the proper care.

we can manipulate normal conversation, deceive people, make them do things they don't want to do, influence them, etc. NLP does not cause these travesties, it is simply a higher-level mode of communication.

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