Exercise/Nutrition/Supplementation - Ask OTIS


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:56 am 
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1 -1.5 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight

The above is incorrect and potentially harmful. I've tried explaining this to Otis on several occasions -- this makes me seriously doubt this thread, especially since his retort to criticisms is "The tried and true method used by millions!"

Example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1474076
Quote:
Leucine kinetic and nitrogen balance (NBAL) methods were used to determine the dietary protein requirements of strength athletes (SA) compared with sedentary subjects (S). Individual subjects were randomly assigned to one of three protein intakes: low protein (LP) = 0.86 g protein.kg-1.day-1, moderate protein (MP) = 1.40 g protein.kg-1.day-1, or high protein (HP) = 2.40 g protein.kg-1.day-1 for 13 days for each dietary treatment. NBAL was measured and whole body protein synthesis (WBPS) and leucine oxidation were determined from L-[1-13C]leucine turnover. NBAL data were used to determine that the protein intake for zero NBAL for S was 0.69 g.kg-1.day-1 and for SA was 1.41 g.kg-1.day-1. A suggested recommended intake for S was 0.89 g.kg-1.day-1 and for SA was 1.76 g.kg-1.day-1. For SA, the LP diet did not provide adequate protein and resulted in an accommodated state (decreased WBPS vs. MP and HP), and the MP diet resulted in a state of adaptation [increase in WBPS (vs. LP) and no change in leucine oxidation (vs. LP)]. The HP diet did not result in increased WBPS compared with the MP diet, but leucine oxidation did increase significantly, indicating a nutrient overload.

Now let me do the math.

1 kilogram is approximately 2.20 pounds.
As a result, 1 Lbs = 0.45 Kg.

The advised amount is traditionally in the 1 to 1.8 range g/kg. But Otis is recommending 1 - 1.5g/lb.

Under this advice, a 200 LB person (90.718474 kilogram) will be consuming 200 - 300 G of protein, where the research discusses ranges of 90.7 to 163.

Suspected Problems with Protein:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/high-protein-diets/AN00847 wrote:
For most healthy people, a high-protein diet generally isn't harmful if followed for a short time, such as three to four months, and may help with weight loss. However, the risks of using a high-protein diet — usually with carbohydrate restriction — for the long term are still being studied. Several health problems may result if a high-protein diet is followed for an extended time:

Some high-protein diets restrict carbohydrate intake so much that they can result in nutritional deficiencies or insufficient fiber, which can cause such health problems as constipation and diverticulitis, and may increase your risk for certain types of cancer.

High-protein diets often promote foods such as red meat and full-fat dairy products. Some experts believe a diet rich in these foods can increase your risk of heart disease.

A high-protein diet may cause or worsen liver or kidney problems because your body may already have trouble eliminating all the waste products of protein metabolism.


Now someone may wonder why I use words like "may" and "suspect", vs the "tried and true experience of millions." It's because despite what the common gym go-er will tell you, a lot of this stuff still isn't understood. Always distrust those who seem to know the answers to these complex questions -- especially when they can't keep grams and pounds straight. If you want to use your body as the testing grounds for a study on effects of misinformation, go ahead. But you won't visibly notice any problems until years later, after the damage has slowly been done.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:04 pm 
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Hobbit wrote:
Quote:
1 -1.5 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight

The above is incorrect and potentially harmful. I've tried explaining this to Otis on several occasions -- this makes me seriously doubt this thread, especially since his retort to criticisms is "The tried and true method used by millions!"

Example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1474076
Quote:
Leucine kinetic and nitrogen balance (NBAL) methods were used to determine the dietary protein requirements of strength athletes (SA) compared with sedentary subjects (S). Individual subjects were randomly assigned to one of three protein intakes: low protein (LP) = 0.86 g protein.kg-1.day-1, moderate protein (MP) = 1.40 g protein.kg-1.day-1, or high protein (HP) = 2.40 g protein.kg-1.day-1 for 13 days for each dietary treatment. NBAL was measured and whole body protein synthesis (WBPS) and leucine oxidation were determined from L-[1-13C]leucine turnover. NBAL data were used to determine that the protein intake for zero NBAL for S was 0.69 g.kg-1.day-1 and for SA was 1.41 g.kg-1.day-1. A suggested recommended intake for S was 0.89 g.kg-1.day-1 and for SA was 1.76 g.kg-1.day-1. For SA, the LP diet did not provide adequate protein and resulted in an accommodated state (decreased WBPS vs. MP and HP), and the MP diet resulted in a state of adaptation [increase in WBPS (vs. LP) and no change in leucine oxidation (vs. LP)]. The HP diet did not result in increased WBPS compared with the MP diet, but leucine oxidation did increase significantly, indicating a nutrient overload.

Now let me do the math.

1 kilogram is approximately 2.20 pounds.
As a result, 1 Lbs = 0.45 Kg.

The advised amount is traditionally in the 1 to 1.8 range g/kg. But Otis is recommending 1 - 1.5g/lb.

Under this advice, a 200 LB person (90.718474 kilogram) will be consuming 200 - 300 G of protein, where the research discusses ranges of 90.7 to 163.

Suspected Problems with Protein:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/high-protein-diets/AN00847 wrote:
For most healthy people, a high-protein diet generally isn't harmful if followed for a short time, such as three to four months, and may help with weight loss. However, the risks of using a high-protein diet — usually with carbohydrate restriction — for the long term are still being studied. Several health problems may result if a high-protein diet is followed for an extended time:

Some high-protein diets restrict carbohydrate intake so much that they can result in nutritional deficiencies or insufficient fiber, which can cause such health problems as constipation and diverticulitis, and may increase your risk for certain types of cancer.

High-protein diets often promote foods such as red meat and full-fat dairy products. Some experts believe a diet rich in these foods can increase your risk of heart disease.

A high-protein diet may cause or worsen liver or kidney problems because your body may already have trouble eliminating all the waste products of protein metabolism.


Now someone may wonder why I use words like "may" and "suspect", vs the "tried and true experience of millions." It's because despite what the common gym go-er will tell you, a lot of this stuff still isn't understood. Always distrust those who seem to know the answers to these complex questions -- especially when they can't keep grams and pounds straight. If you want to use your body as the testing grounds for a study on effects of misinformation, go ahead. But you won't visibly notice any problems until years later, after the damage has slowly been done.




"technically he's not incorrect but he's looking at protein only from a substrate perspective and not taking into account the metabolic effects and signaling aspects that amino acids have. Honestly it's difficult to explain without talking you through it exactly what the difference is."

This is the response given to me by Layne Norton, who is a professional bodybuilder who competes in a drug tested organization, a professional coach who has trained at least several hundred clients, and who has a P.hD in Nutritional Science who did his research specifically pertaining to leucine synthesis and its anabolic effects.

The question that i asked is what Hobbit said, my nutrition professor gave the 1 gram per Kg figure which contradicted anything i had ever read about a bulking diet so I decided to ask Layne in his Q&A section in a bodybuilding forum.

Here is the link to the page the question was asked: http://forums.musculardevelopment.com/s ... on/page115

And as for doubting my entire thread on the basis of one potentially off figure....

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:27 pm 
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BroScience is not equal to real science.


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 1:16 am 
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I differ on the opinion of going all the way down on the squat. Your reference to half squats most do is correct, it is horrible for the knees since that is where the force is on. But the major players in strength training all say that going below parallel is ideal.
Here is a quote from Madcow on the subject.

"There are several schools of thought on squat depth. Many misinformed individuals caution against squatting below parallel, stating that this is hazardous to the knees. Nothing could be further from the truth. (2) Stopping at or above parallel places direct stress on the knees, whereas a deep squat will transfer the load to the hips,(3) which are capable of handling a greater amount of force than the knees should ever be exposed to. Studies have shown that the squat produces lower peak tibeo-femoral(stress at the knee joint) compressive force than both the leg press and the leg extension.(4) For functional strength, one should descend as deeply as possible, and under control. (yes, certain individuals can squat in a ballistic manner, but they are the exception rather than the rule). The further a lifter descends, the more the hamstrings are recruited, and proper squatting displays nearly twice the hamstring involvement of the leg press or leg extension. (5,6) and as one of the functions of the hamstring is to protect the patella tendon (the primary tendon involved in knee extension) during knee extension through a concurrent firing process, the greatest degree of hamstring recruitment should provide the greatest degree of protection to the knee joint. (7) When one is a powerlifter, the top surface of the legs at the hip joint must descend to a point below the top surface of the legs at the knee joint."


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 5:08 am 
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Otis i miss you dude! what do you think of:

Body for life

Insanity

P90x

Crossfit


Finally, when are we gonna throw it down??????? lets do it dude!

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 9:25 pm 
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skills360 wrote:
Otis i miss you dude! what do you think of:

Body for life

Insanity

P90x

Crossfit


Finally, when are we gonna throw it down??????? lets do it dude!


Hey Vin Diesel can you sign my shirt?

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 Post subject: Testosterone boosters
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 3:59 pm 
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Should i consider buying a testosterone booster? Is it necessary? What different does it have from steroids, since the main purpose of anabolic steroids is to higher your test. levels...?

Dino


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 6:42 pm 
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LilDino wrote:
Should i consider buying a testosterone booster? Is it necessary? What different does it have from steroids, since the main purpose of anabolic steroids is to higher your test. levels...?

Dino


My understanding of steroids, which could be wrong....

They are synthetic testosterone, so in a way boosting your testosterone levels and injecting some there is very little diffrence. However, nobody just takes steroids to level out thier testosterone levels. Also, I am sure like everything in life the organic natrual testosterone is healthier and safer than something cooked up in a lab.


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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 6:46 pm 
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Faust23 wrote:
LilDino wrote:
Should i consider buying a testosterone booster? Is it necessary? What different does it have from steroids, since the main purpose of anabolic steroids is to higher your test. levels...?

Dino


My understanding of steroids, which could be wrong....

They are synthetic testosterone, so in a way boosting your testosterone levels and injecting some there is very little diffrence. However, nobody just takes steroids to level out thier testosterone levels. Also, I am sure like everything in life the organic natrual testosterone is healthier and safer than something cooked up in a lab.


Testosterone levels cant be boosted to the kind of levels that can be obtained through synthetic injections. And synthetic test is perfectly healthy, only in massive doses and irresponsible use will it harm your health.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 12:21 pm 
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Which program would you suggest to me?

I have done g6 for 3 months and program splitted in 3 for 9 months and it began so boring that I haven't hit the gym for a month. My training hasn't been very regular apart from 3 months of g6 and few months with 3 way splitted program and nutrition hasn't been that good.

I am kinda skinnyfat, i weight 73kg(morning weight) my height is 182Cm(~6FT)

My goal for now is to lower my bodyfat% and gain strength, is it good to do cardio on day offs?

My stats:

deadlift 5x90kg
squat 5x80kg
benchpress 5x50kg

I think that my chest and triceps seem to be way behind my other body and I have been struggling with same weights in bench for long time. Maybe I am not doing it correctly?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:14 am 
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Man In The Middle wrote:
Which program would you suggest to me?

I have done g6 for 3 months and program splitted in 3 for 9 months and it began so boring that I haven't hit the gym for a month. My training hasn't been very regular apart from 3 months of g6 and few months with 3 way splitted program and nutrition hasn't been that good.

I am kinda skinnyfat, i weight 73kg(morning weight) my height is 182Cm(~6FT)

My goal for now is to lower my bodyfat% and gain strength, is it good to do cardio on day offs?

My stats:

deadlift 5x90kg
squat 5x80kg
benchpress 5x50kg

I think that my chest and triceps seem to be way behind my other body and I have been struggling with same weights in bench for long time. Maybe I am not doing it correctly?



Not sure what g6 is this is the first time I've heard of it, but you seem pretty aware of why you are stagnating. Get on a regular program and get solid nutrition and you will see gains, the type of program I always recommend is the standard bodybuilding volume training program which involves a training split of lifting 4-5 days a week splitting up body parts into separate days, workouts should be more than 60 mins long, and each workout is 3-5 exercises per bodypart,3-4 sets per exercise, ranging from 6-12 reps per set pyramiding the weight up each set, with a 60-90 seconds rest in between sets and larger bodyparts (chest, back,legs) usually having more volume in number of sets compared to smaller bodyparts. This is a tried and true program that has existed for half a century and it should work for you if you apply it correctly and back it up with serious nutrition, good sleep.
As for your bench press technique that would have to be seen in person or over video if it is being done right, but you most likely have hit a plateau which is broken through my taking your training to the next level, taking on a new workout program, or better practices in nutrition, or all of the above. Make sure to do isolation exercises as well, they do have their place. People think they can do back and chest and not worry about training arms, but in practice this has been proven false by those with even the best genetics for building muscle.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:23 am 
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Hey BrOTIS.

What's up dude?

I really like your article. Good info, except for the last portion...

You are seriously joking about the anabolic steroids being safe, effective, and legal, right? Last I was aware of, they are illegal in professional sports and Olympics because they fuck up your body and your mind. Why on earth would we want to snort, inject, and/or imbibe something that causes impotence, infertility, severe acne and a multitude of mental problems such as mania/depression among many other side effects.

Are you a psychiatrist, pharmacist, personal trainer, OR even knowledgeable of the negative side effects of these drugs? (Crippling physical ailments, mental damage, jail time) If you are... you are smarter than all my coaches, doctors, and exercise magazines/friends put together.

Seriously, guys say NO to "the juice".


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:08 pm 
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Chicoman wrote:
Hey BrOTIS.

What's up dude?

I really like your article. Good info, except for the last portion...

You are seriously joking about the anabolic steroids being safe, effective, and legal, right? Last I was aware of, they are illegal in professional sports and Olympics because they fuck up your body and your mind. Why on earth would we want to snort, inject, and/or imbibe something that causes impotence, infertility, severe acne and a multitude of mental problems such as mania/depression among many other side effects.

Are you a psychiatrist, pharmacist, personal trainer, OR even knowledgeable of the negative side effects of these drugs? (Crippling physical ailments, mental damage, jail time) If you are... you are smarter than all my coaches, doctors, and exercise magazines/friends put together.

Seriously, guys say NO to "the juice".


Yes I would say im smarter than all of those people put together because of my association with the competitive bodybuilding community, and magazines like Muscular Development have awesome articles on anabolics that clear up controversies and ambiguities so that people will have a better knowledge of them. As for doctors, anyone who went to med school will admit to you that in their pharmacology lectures they do not extensively cover anabolic steroids for the sake performance enhancement, but will briefly gloss over the topic and only for the sake of its medicinal properties. If you want to learn about it, talk to people who have used it and research it extensively on your own. The mass public is ignorant of steroids, how extensively used it is in sports (pro, college, high school).

The widespread fear and lack of understanding of steroids has little to do with the truth of the matter. Yes, you can use them safely. Can you die from it? Yes you can. But you will only die from it by using like an idiot, and not being an idiot to use in the first place. Everyone who has ever died from steroids was not using safely or with prior knowledge, and most had a pre-existing condition such as a kidney disorder or heart issues. People who look into using should check if they have any of these conditions, and people who do decide to use need to get regular health check ups to look for any early warning signs.

And for the side effects, they are not universal for everyone. There is no list of guranteed sides that will happen if you decide to use, because everyone has a different genetic predisposition. Some people will suffer sides at small doses, some can go nuts with dosages and be perfectly healthy, it is not written in stone. As for psychological side effects such as manic depression or whatever that is most likely the consequence of something else and not the steroids. The only risk you running by using anabolics is a psychological dependency, that you will for sure lose your gains once you go off for an extended period of time, but to deal with that is apart of being a man about such things.
I dont advocate or denounce steroid use, I am stating the truth as it is and I am in a better position to know what the truth is regarding this topic. Just because the truth of the matter strongly contradicts the widespread stigma that comes with steroids doesnt make me a user nor a salesman. But personally, steroids are a better drug than things like alcohol tobacco weed, etc. Why? Because it is aimed at something constructive and not something destructive.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:39 am 
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I'm sorry... I'm not "buying" into this whole steroids being safe lecture... When you google "Anabolic steroids", the first link is wikipedia and half the page lists adverse effects. Second page on my google is http://www.drugabuse.gov/drugs-abuse/steroids-anabolic which lists even more negative side effects. Teens read this PUA site... Which leads me to a question...

WHY is this even an argument and also stickied on the top of the Health and Fitness forum?

I'd rather not have someone die or get seriously fucked up for life from these steroidal "suggestions" and I could care less what Muscular Development magazine and the pro bodybuilder guys cheating on their drug tests have to say... My coaches (football, wrestling, PE, track, etc...), doctors, and personal trainers told me to stay away from steroids in my teen years. I'm not trying to be the bad guy here, I just wouldn't ever put steroids on my list of diet/exercise/fitness advice and then go on to argue that it is a safer drug than other harmful drugs.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:10 pm 
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This is border line acceptable conversation, talking about drugs is okay but encouraging or advocating the use of illegal drugs is not okay.


that being said, all drugs have risks, some more than others. Although anabolic steroids my have a low risk factor when compared to drugs like cocaine or alcohol there are still a controlled substance and illegal for recreational purposes.

side effects of testosterone based steroids include:

shrinking of the testicles
reduced sperm count
infertility
baldness
development of breasts
increased risk for prostate cancer

and the list goes on.

if your going to put chemicals in your body 1. make sure your well educated and 2. don't talk about it on a pua forum ;)

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