Social Darwinism - PUAs ticket to reality(?)



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:40 pm 
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So i was wasting some time today on youtube and came across a video which listed failed countries. Not surprisingly, most of the countries were in Africa. People there are being forced out of their homes, robbed, starved, raped, ideologically/politically prosecuted, mutilated and killed by the millions. Sometimes in that exact order, but rarely without enduring some parts of that sequence.

It got me thinking: are people who survive all that problems somehow better fit to survive future problems, as well as their offspring? Darwin and natural selection were clearly the first thing i connected with the whole situation, but there were more things at work here than just natural selection. So i searched for the term to better encapsulate whats happening. Turns out the term of social Darwinism is good explanation of all that shit thats happening there,

Social Darwinism pulls a lot of negative connotation with it. If you exclude the pure Darwinism part(which by itself is "offensive" to some people) its connected to eugenics, nazis, fascism, racism, even to capitalism and satanism(apparently, Church of Satan exist and they took social Darwinism as a part of their ideology).

You may ask at this point: what does PUA mindset got with social Darwinism? First i need to say that the theory of social Darwinism is not inherently bad or "evil", it just got used as as an excuse for a lot of bad people and their actions in history. In my eyes, I immediately saw pickup as subset of ideas anchored in social Darwinism. It got a lot in common, both are ultimately rooted in evolutionary theory, and both expand that view to social dynamics. And again, im not seeing it from a negative context. Actually, for me, i see the link as something positive, because it makes pickup more grounded in reality for me.

Personally, i always had an issue with all these independently developed pickup systems. Lines, diagrams, steps, routines all coming from an individual or a small group and saying its a "complete" system of social dynamics which will allow you to "see the matrix". Unless you work in an Austrian patent office hundred years ago, there is not much chance in discovering something that seemed so profound. It made sense from self-help standpoint in the sense it helped, but my inner geek wanted something more tangible to grab onto. Mistery have a lot of fillers in his speeches but he was really integrating concepts of evolutionary psychology in his system. Its what made me think that there is something tangible behind pickup.

Any way, seeing the ideas in which i most often run into from pickup context in scientific debate a couple of hundred years old gives me more faith into community, and more faith that i will not get lost in all the different "systems". Whats your view on connection between pickup and science? What made you convinced that pickup is real?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:22 am 
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This is a chapter in my upcoming book. Going explicitly into Marxism, Darwinism, Romance and how they impact on PUA and sexual selection [= civilisation building]. Let me know if you are interested. BTW the publisher is deeply enthused.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:47 am 
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Mr. Marville wrote:
This is a chapter in my upcoming book. Going explicitly into Marxism, Darwinism, Romance and how they impact on PUA and sexual selection [= civilisation building]. Let me know if you are interested. BTW the publisher is deeply enthused.

Dude, i would take you much more seriously if your signature is not a big advertisement leading to an online store and your post not being basically a pre-promotion for your product. Other than that, i think it definitely deserves a chapter in any pickup book. Marxism? I dont know a lot about it, except what i heard from yugo-nostalgics. If you have something constructive to add, please do.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:12 am 
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nakedanubis wrote:
Mr. Marville wrote:
This is a chapter in my upcoming book. Going explicitly into Marxism, Darwinism, Romance and how they impact on PUA and sexual selection [= civilisation building]. Let me know if you are interested. BTW the publisher is deeply enthused.

Dude, i would take you much more seriously if your signature is not a big advertisement leading to an online store and your post not being basically a pre-promotion for your product. Other than that, i think it definitely deserves a chapter in any pickup book. Marxism? I dont know a lot about it, except what i heard from yugo-nostalgics. If you have something constructive to add, please do.


You have to distinguish between two things here. The first of this is that my ad here is to make a little money on the side. Nothing wrong with that as we all wish to get by. The book I am working on is a different type of animal entirely. In fact the development process is costing more money than gaining, because once published it will still have to be translated.

The debate is so huge that it is almost impossible to say anything that does it justice. I will lift up a tip of the veil. People who overcome obstacles can survive and thus procreate, leading to a race of "problem solvers". But today technology, welfare state, large scale agriculture and cheap fossil energy make our lives much easier and the challenges we face rarely involve our survival. This means there is now a sexual competition where the value of potential partners is derived from artificial status levels, the imagination, more so than ones actual abilities to produce works that contribute to the civilisation. Social Darwinism went bankrupt in this situation. Consider that white science nerds are only popular among Asians while at the same time white middle class women feel drawn to black gangster figures. This may even reflect upon a geopolitical transformation: Asia is up and coming, industrially, while Western societies undergo demographic internal shifts.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:11 pm 
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Still, it is to be expected that advertising is pushing your communication to have a certain bias, albeit probably negligible one in this case.

Yes, it is a huge topic, practically trying to explain human condition in large part. Thats why would like to reduce the discussion to specific topics in regard to pua mindset. For example talking about deceleration of evolution and how that effects society in global sense, like you mentioned.

Actually, there are conflicting views about how evolution is stopping. Logical view is, as you also expressed it, that due to technological advances pressure of natural selection is alleviated and effectively slowing the process of evolution. I think that that is true, but there are counter examples. Often cited is lactose intolerance in the population. Before the advent of agriculture(which is very recently in evolutionary timescales) most of the population was lactose intolerant, not being able to process nutrients in animal milk. Today situation is reverse: lactose intolerant people are in minority. Also the example which i ran into while looking into Africa situation, is that today most of African-Americans, descendants of African slaves, lost the genes which help fight malaria, comparing to native African population which was kept under pressure of natural selection to keep them. Thats even shorter timescale.

Also, there is the issue of gene expression, which i think is immensely important, although is one of the newer concepts of evolutionary theory, coming into light after the human genome was sequenced. It basically states that certain genes are dormant, and dont take part in the process of natural selection until they are activated by environmental factors at which point they start to actively participate in development of individual an his offspring effectively impacting selection process.

There is also the concept of selfish genes, which i wont go in more depth, but it certainly affect our view of how evolution takes place.

I dont think that social Darwinism lost its importance in the situation you described. Social Darwinism ≠ natural selection(typical Darwinism). Just the opposite, a situation where natural selection loses its importance in favor of social selection. Albeit it functions inside of natural selection process, but on much smaller timescales with greater variability. A person who has better social skills to be able to fake status and value can still be considered more fit in the game of natural selection. Like in your example where white nerds are perceived valuable in Asian culture, being more valuable to women experiencing that particular cultural pressure. That doesnt overwrite or nullify hardcoded rules of attraction, but in practice it does need to be taken into account from PUA standpoint.

The way how that process shapes society, like how you concluded that causes Asia to become even more economically important and how it affects north Americas demographic, is i think the most important information that PUA can get from knowing this. Knowing how social pressures shapes girls/woman mindset today and how it might have done in the past considering her background, all contained in a bigger picture of evolutionary psychology. Not by any means necessary, but good to know.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:34 pm 
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Makes sense. For now I will add two minor points only.

If one postulates the gene as a selfish acting agent, prioritizing the own endurance and dissemination, then evolutionary theory by extent becomes a rationale/narrative to legitimize calculative individual behaviour politically also. Frank Schirrmacher writes about this in Ego, das Spiel des Lebens. Basically he analyses game theory and states that Richard Dawkins made gene explanations into the underpinning of Randian neoliberalism because he interprets the gene as fundamental selfish agent. But all this is still up for dispute.

Secondly, if faking social status is now a succesful trait, then this confirms what I said about distilling value from imaginary status levels instead of from tangible contributions as inventing steam engines, binary and the like, or even cultural achievements. Twilight and Bieber replace Mozart and Shakespeare and the like, because it is simpler, therefore more accessible to the mainstream, therefore opens more possibilities in "connecting" with random people. But this teen fluff cannot serve as cement for the pillars of a civilisation. Hence Social Faking is not the same as Social Darwinism. Our economies become geared towards the preferences of "the masses", instead of functioning to elevate those masses.

But again my book contains many quotes, RL examples, stats and nuances that I have not the occasion for here.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:37 am 
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Just wanted to comment that altruism, empathy and compassion are also explainable by evolutionary selection, but that these "selfless" qualities have sometimes wrongly been excluded from definitions of social darwinism.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:53 pm 
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stevepm wrote:
Just wanted to comment that altruism, empathy and compassion are also explainable by evolutionary selection, but that these "selfless" qualities have sometimes wrongly been excluded from definitions of social darwinism.

Yes, people tend think of these qualities as uniquely human. People like to feel unique, which makes them scarce hence valuable. You will get resistance from people explaining this, nobody wants to give up the chance to feel good about them self. Which is great for their current state of mind, but i think its bad for self growth in the long run.

But reality is of course that there is a shitload of evidence for what you said. Empathy and compassion are great traits to have for a member of a social species as humans. Knowing and understanding which other people feel is very advantageous to an individual, makes perfect sense that these traits became hardcoded in everyone during evolution.

Altruism also, but this one is a little more tricky. Natural selection does not explain explicitly why it should even exist. I heard a theory about it, dont remember the source unfortunately, which i think it has sense. Imagine a ancient group of people, everything is great, food is abundant. In this scenario altruism is great, individual does not lose much because of it, and it can gain a lot through reciprocity principle. Also, people not participating in sexual selection, it can be a number of reasons for that, can still help in the group and make it stronger as a whole. Genes for altruism get present in a greater percentage of people during this time. But imagine now shit hitting the fan, maybe a 10 000 years ice age comes up. Altruism is not so great anymore for a person. Resources are scarce, people are wasting it in sub optimal way, giving resources to people which dont directly help with their survival or their offspring's. Selfish people start to thrive, reducing percentage of people with altruistic genes during time. And so it goes, back and forth for millions of years. There is always people which are primarily altruistic, and those which are primarily selfish in a population, balance of which depends on current long term situation. When you think about it, this mechanism helps a lot in survival of the species as a whole.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:57 pm 
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reading this I just got an image of bill and teds excellent adventures and the scene were socrates has sand for dust in the wind.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:53 pm 
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Like to see a philosophy discussion; especially so on my favorite forum...There is lot of dancing around issues in this "debate" and throwing around of concepts.

To say that evolution is slowing down because less selection factors I disagree, the selection factors are less obvious and far more complicated then before. Ultimately I clearly see a division happening as social inequality increases; to simplify a immensely complex situation there will be seclusive environments: upper class and lower class> 2 populations> over enough time 2 separate species.(my theory)

Quoting a lecturer altruism exists in nature; because it benefits the population/species as a whole...a large population is needed for a healthy population thus one could argue altruism is rational


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:30 am 
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The matrix opened up to me when I realized that when I just ASSUME the girl is down for some flirting, good things may happen. ALL of this really isn't any more complicated than that.

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