First date


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 Post subject: First date
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:33 pm 
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So I have a date with this girl I like. We met couple years ago, something could have happened but I chickened out.
She has been single for 3 months now(was a pretty serious relationship) and we talked a bit recently. So now I asked her to do something she agreed and offered some ideas(drinks, movies).
I called her to tell her we gonna go to a bar when they have karaoke night, she is a huge music fan. Then she suddenly asks if I asked any of our friends to come??? Some of them are really talented singers so maybe thats her reason, but shouldn't it be pretty obvious this is a date? She said a couple days ago she was excited.

She also went out for drinks with one of my best friends(he is dating one of her friends though), so maybe she thinks thats the same platonic shit.

Now I'm confused, I was thinking about going for the kiss later in the night.

Any ideas how to proceed with kino etc?

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 Post subject: Re: First date
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:13 am 
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Show Stopper wrote:
I called her to tell her we gonna go to a bar when they have karaoke night, she is a huge music fan. Then she suddenly asks if I asked any of our friends to come??? Some of them are really talented singers so maybe thats her reason, but shouldn't it be pretty obvious this is a date? She said a couple days ago she was excited.


Her: Should we invite friends???
You: I'm not interested in making out with your friends, lol.


Quote:
Any ideas how to proceed with kino etc?



Kino is fucking pointless nonsense. If you tease and remain playful with honesty, you can then go in for the kiss. Kino is patty-cake, hesitant, and non-dominant early on. It's fine after seduction, obviously.

Mental stimulation via playful honesty is far more important. I advocate ignoring any kino system. All of that comes organically from confidence and teasing.

Kino is what women do to men, especially if you've built some muscles mass. Many of the suggested moves like "high fives" are a fucking joke and buddy nonsense. Dominant males just go for what they want with the kiss.

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 Post subject: Re: First date
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:09 am 
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I seriously think that this is a game girls play. When they make plans with a guy to go out, they give this 'see how he acts' thing. So when she gets asked out, and everything screams its a date. Furthermore, she knows it's a date, and she knows that you know that she knows it's a date.

Then.... She starts to get cute on you. Should we invite friends! She just wants to see how you would react, keep that in mind. Most guys would give up the vibe off "Okay, I am so grateful that she agreed to do something with me, I better not say anything to have her not to do that thing with me".

So, if she says should we invite friends. You have few options and these are not the only or best options there are. But here it goes:

- I would say "How about we go to church on a Sunday instead". With a straight face.
With this, you let her get the joke. That you are not fucking around, and you could be as funny with going to the church as she is with inviting friends. You are totally ignoring her statement. You are not seeing what she said seriously.

- Ask her straight out "what the fuck you think I am doing?"
With this you are calling it out, you telling her you have seen it all, you have done it all. And that you know how the game is played. This is best used if she said that line "Should we invite friends" with a straight face. Because if she did not and you said that line you could come across as aggressive and taking shit way to seriously. And she could tell you she was just joking.

- Smile and totally ignore what she said. This is a little short story would give you some meaning (hopefully). My best friend he has a girlfriend now. But at one point he was in game full force. And one night he went gaming solo. He opened a group of guys and girls (total about 5-6 people). He was talking and joking with everyone. One girl that he was ignoring (trying to implement MM: ignoring your target).

That girl looked at him as he is standing with her friends in a circle and she told him in a bar where everyone could hear everyone. She said "What the hell are you doing with us? do you know any of us?". That accompanied by hocker-didnot-get-paid-like face. What he did was impressive. He acted like he did not hear anything, totally ignoring her. Her friends were pissed at her for treating this nice guy with such mean words. It really happened.

The bottom line ignore her statement and all the other statements you do not like when you have girls throwing them at you. You could ignore it or just change the subject.




Lastly, if she insist in having friends just flak on her after you make plans. Punish her behavior by flaking on her. One line Mystery said in game I would consider the best line written/said in game is the following:

"An IOI begets an IOI, and an IOD begets IOD"

IOI-indecator of interest
IOD-indiecator of disinterest

All the best


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 Post subject: Re: First date
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:05 am 
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Designs wrote:
Then.... She starts to get cute on you. Should we invite friends! She just wants to see how you would react, keep that in mind. Most guys would give up the vibe off "Okay, I am so grateful that she agreed to do something with me, I better not say anything to have her not to do that thing with me".

No. She is not "testing" you. She's not interested enough, not comfortable enough OR you date invite did not make it clear enough that this is in fact a date.

Interested women don't risk fucking things up for the sake of stupid games. That's common sense.

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 Post subject: Re: First date
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:43 am 
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R.C wrote:
Designs wrote:
Then.... She starts to get cute on you. Should we invite friends! She just wants to see how you would react, keep that in mind. Most guys would give up the vibe off "Okay, I am so grateful that she agreed to do something with me, I better not say anything to have her not to do that thing with me".

No. She is not "testing" you. She's not interested enough, not comfortable enough OR you date invite did not make it clear enough that this is in fact a date.

Interested women don't risk fucking things up for the sake of stupid games. That's common sense.


First of, none of what I suggest will have him fall out with this girl and lose her as a friend. Keep that in mind.

Let us break this down:

I do not see where you are coming from with this!!!

-Maybe she is not interested enough? ------- what is enough? she is contacting the dude, and she is suggesting plans for the both of them.

-Maybe she is not comfortable enough?
I do not know what that really means in this context? Is he going to give her a bath?

She is not 'testing' you. I never used that word, but it could be used in this case and I will argue that in most cases the girl is testing.

Quote:
you date invite did not make it clear enough that this is in fact a date.


How clear can you be??? And by the looks of it, the dude made it pretty clear it is a date. A guy taking a girl on a date is vague thing, and can be extremely visible by the plans he proposes. Let's go grab a drink or let's do this or that. Then the girl agrees. Then she says "let's invite friends".

Quote:
Interested women don't risk fucking things up for the sake of stupid games. That's common sense.


Not all women are alike, and by the looks of it, I could guess he is dealing with an Alpha female. And she is sizing him up.

You argued with me about common sense. I am all about giving girls a break and the benefit of the doubt. But just because I get drunk and insult people, that does not obligate said people who got insulted to take it from me. With that, I am saying, even if she is confused (just taking your argument into account, which is most likely not the case) she should be treated the same manner. I am not saying go treat women like shit, I am saying treat them the way they treat you.

Let's not hypothesize. What is the alternative?

She will keep pushing him, and he will be rolling over. And giving her every benefit of the doubt. At the end of it, if he is done all of that he will be "Such a nice guy!!!" << I want to die before I hear these words from a girl (never have never will). Or "You are my new best friend"

What is he going to lose at this point? And what is any of what I said originally compromises his friendship with her.

Dealing with this

Doing/saying what I said originally establishes dominance, and telling her you are not fucking around. If she is 'interested, but she is confused' OMG. She will get her shit together because this guy isn't fucking around.

At last, saying this with all delicacy. I do not see any common sense in your argument, in not being forward and dominant in game. I encourage against it.

All the best


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 Post subject: Re: First date
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:06 pm 
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Designs wrote:
First of, none of what I suggest will have him fall out with this girl and lose her as a friend. Keep that in mind.

Probably not, but it is giving him a bad mindset.

Designs wrote:
Let us break this down:

I do not see where you are coming from with this!!!

-Maybe she is not interested enough? ------- what is enough? she is contacting the dude, and she is suggesting plans for the both of them.

She didn't suggest plans, he did. She merely chimed in. And she's pretty clearly not suggesting plans exclusively for them both since she asked if more people are coming.
She's fresh out of a relationship. You can be sure she'll welcome the attention but that doesn't mean her interest is real.

Designs wrote:
-Maybe she is not comfortable enough?
I do not know what that really means in this context? Is he going to give her a bath?

It means that if you make small talk with a woman without actually flirting with her, she won't be comfortable going out 1on1 with a guy who's invite seems to have come out of the blue. Even if she finds him somewhat attractive, the prerogative is still disproportionate.

Designs wrote:
She is not 'testing' you. I never used that word, but it could be used in this case and I will argue that in most cases the girl is testing.

Quote:
you date invite did not make it clear enough that this is in fact a date.


How clear can you be??? And by the looks of it, the dude made it pretty clear it is a date. A guy taking a girl on a date is vague thing, and can be extremely visible by the plans he proposes. Let's go grab a drink or let's do this or that. Then the girl agrees. Then she says "let's invite friends".

Like I said before, if his "recent talks" with her involved flirting, teasing, innuendos and so on, then ofcourse she'll have indicative to think it's a date. If they're blend and impersonal on the other hand, she may very well not understand why he'd suddenly show romantic interest whereas he didn't up to that point.
And asking a woman to "do something" is hardly a date invite.

Designs wrote:
Not all women are alike, and by the looks of it, I could guess he is dealing with an Alpha female. And she is sizing him up.

There's no such thing as an alpha female. And yes, not all women are alike. And not all women should be worth your time either. What's in your opinion the point of playing games? Because if experience is any indicative, women who play "hard to get" do so because they really don't have anything to offer, so they try to create the illusion of value.

Designs wrote:
You argued with me about common sense. I am all about giving girls a break and the benefit of the doubt. But just because I get drunk and insult people, that does not obligate said people who got insulted to take it from me. With that, I am saying, even if she is confused (just taking your argument into account, which is most likely not the case) she should be treated the same manner. I am not saying go treat women like shit, I am saying treat them the way they treat you.


It's not about giving women the benefit of doubt, it's about valuing your time and not wasting it on people that don't reciprocate. He should treat her exactly as she deserves, and not attribute her displayed arguable lack of interest as a "test", or resort to any other kind of wishful thinking.

Designs wrote:
Let's not hypothesize. What is the alternative?

She will keep pushing him, and he will be rolling over. And giving her every benefit of the doubt. At the end of it, if he is done all of that he will be "Such a nice guy!!!" << I want to die before I hear these words from a girl (never have never will). Or "You are my new best friend"


Again, not about giving her any benefit. My answer to her friends question would've simply been "No, I'm asking you out on a date". But that's not in the slightest because I thought she was testing me or playing games. Just clearing up what was supposed to be obvious, and her response to that will be dictated by our interaction prior to that point.

Designs wrote:
What is he going to lose at this point? And what is any of what I said originally compromises his friendship with her.

Dealing with this

Doing/saying what I said originally establishes dominance, and telling her you are not fucking around. If she is 'interested, but she is confused' OMG. She will get her shit together because this guy isn't fucking around.

At last, saying this with all delicacy. I do not see any common sense in your argument, in not being forward and dominant in game. I encourage against it.

All the best


It's not necessarily about what he has to lose now, it's about what he has to lose in the long run. Time should be a valuable commodity. Sometimes you fuck up and she's not interested, other times she's unavailable for other, external reasons. Either way the reality is she's not into you, and this whole "test" mentality does little other than encourage inexperienced guys to keep pushing on a door that's clearly shut, as a way to protect their egos from rejection. There's no growth in that.

Women will always be turned off by men that can't take a hint, and will be very careful in sending the right signals when their interest is real.

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 Post subject: Re: First date
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:41 pm 
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Update and some things for context:
We didn't go, she is on vacation but asked me when I'm free next week.

We probably talked a bit too much about personal stuff, but at least not too much about her ex boyfriend. Just life stuff. Also did some flirting with her telling me I deserve a high five...to the face :)

Oh and a little more than a year ago I actually told her I am interested and we should go out, she agreed and said it's mutual. Just never happened for various reasons.

She also told my buddy "at least thats a real guy" whatever thats worth. That's why I phrased the whole date a bit more casual, because she might be a bit vulnerable right now and she should also know about me

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 Post subject: Re: First date
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:48 pm 
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Location: your mind
where is escalation?

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 Post subject: Re: First date
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:50 pm 
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Quote:
Probably not, but it is giving him a bad mindset.


Yeah, this is a pickup forum isn't it? I urge you not to succumb to the 'propaganda' about game is all about guys trying to sleep with girls and never call them up again. No, game is about social interaction.

I would like you to agree in the below definition.

The meaning of game is: To know how to read people, know how they are saying what they are saying, what their end game is. Furthermore, knowing what to say and how to say it, more precisely knowing where every action/reaction verbal or otherwise would take you.

Once you agree with me, you will see everyone game historical figures, presidents, religious people, even children game in the schoolyard. Once again, if you agree with me on that definition, you would see people who do not game, are the oblivious ones.


As far as the, not being good to girls and 'gaming mindset' thing. That differs from person to person. People come and sign up to this forum to learn the methods and get practical advice. And not to take ethics 101 lessons. It's like signing up for shooting class, they would teach you how to use it. But they will not even bother to tell you "Do not shoot people who do not leathery threaten you".

All the best


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 Post subject: Re: First date
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:05 pm 
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Show Stopper wrote:
Update and some things for context:
We didn't go, she is on vacation but asked me when I'm free next week.

We probably talked a bit too much about personal stuff, but at least not too much about her ex boyfriend. Just life stuff. Also did some flirting with her telling me I deserve a high five...to the face :)

Oh and a little more than a year ago I actually told her I am interested and we should go out, she agreed and said it's mutual. Just never happened for various reasons.

She also told my buddy "at least thats a real guy" whatever thats worth. That's why I phrased the whole date a bit more casual, because she might be a bit vulnerable right now and she should also know about me



Fantastic, now you know she is interested. You know your situation better than me. But I would encourage you to do two things and avoid one thing.

1-Lead: instead of
"Hey HB, do you want to go get something to drink Tuesday night?".
Be like
" Hey HB, let's go to that bar Tuesday night to get drinks".

You are dominant Alpha male who does not give two shits, at the same time cool nice guy to hangout with.

2-Let her talk: find what she wants to talk about and drill on that. And let her do 70% of the talking, make sure you are string the convo in a deep connections. I used to make this mistake where I could keep the girl talking but I lack the theory in how to stir it in any direction I want.

For example, you want to build deep connection with her about things she doesn't talk about with most people. Small things have volume.

And keep in mind, let there be awkward pauses for few seconds. You might get uncomfortable and you might be compiled to fill this awkwardness. DO NOT. If you get uncomfortable remember she is most likely are (your uncomfortableness)^3. Let her do that.

Do not agree on everything she says

3- This could be a genuine thing between you and her. Be genuine, do not think of strategies a lot. Instead, just enjoy it. And by the sound of it, you got that part where you said you have her not talk about her previous boyfriend. Good.

Lastly, again this could be genuine things, do not rush it. do not sexually escalate if it doesn't feel right. Some PUA say, you should object the first time and tell her even if she didn't hint she wants to get laid. So next you have higher chances of getting laid.

I am very invested in this story, I would like to see how it plays out.

Best of luck


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 Post subject: Re: First date
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:07 am 
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Designs wrote:
Yeah, this is a pickup forum isn't it? I urge you not to succumb to the 'propaganda' about game is all about guys trying to sleep with girls and never call them up again. No, game is about social interaction.


I've been here for 6 years. I know what pickup is. And when I said bad mindset, I meant bad mindset in his future interactions with women, which will hinder his success.


Designs wrote:
I would like you to agree in the below definition.

The meaning of game is: To know how to read people, know how they are saying what they are saying, what their end game is. Furthermore, knowing what to say and how to say it, more precisely knowing where every action/reaction verbal or otherwise would take you.

Once you agree with me, you will see everyone game historical figures, presidents, religious people, even children game in the schoolyard. Once again, if you agree with me on that definition, you would see people who do not game, are the oblivious ones.

There is rarely anything precise in human interaction. But either way, you seem to not be paying attention to what I write.

Designs wrote:
As far as the, not being good to girls and 'gaming mindset' thing. That differs from person to person. People come and sign up to this forum to learn the methods and get practical advice. And not to take ethics 101 lessons. It's like signing up for shooting class, they would teach you how to use it. But they will not even bother to tell you "Do not shoot people who do not leathery threaten you".

All the best

Who said anything about not being good to girls? I said treat people how they deserve. Don't give women more attention than they've earned. When someone is giving you half assed responses you don't keep on talking to them thinking it's a test. You cut them the fuck off. That's not being good, bad, nice or an asshole. It's valuing your own time.

Not sure why you're bringing ethics into this to be honest. I didn't.

Let me clarify. The mindset of "tests", "IoIs", "IoDs", "negs" and so on is old school MM. It's flawed, because it's "designed" as a band-aid solution that generates little to no personal growth in the long run. It's also not genuine. The result is overly gamey guys that don't get results and can't figure out why.

So to continue your analogy, a guy going to the shooting range will have people instructing him. And if he gets thought how to aim improperly, he may hit a few close range shots, but will miss all the rest. And then he'll be told the targets are "testing" him, and that he's in fact not missing.

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 Post subject: Re: First date
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:19 am 
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Designs wrote:
1-Lead: instead of
"Hey HB, do you want to go get something to drink Tuesday night?".
Be like
" Hey HB, let's go to that bar Tuesday night to get drinks".


Agreed on that. Not because "Alpha male", but because that's how a proper date invite looks like.

Designs wrote:
2-Let her talk: find what she wants to talk about and drill on that. And let her do 70% of the talking, make sure you are string the convo in a deep connections. I used to make this mistake where I could keep the girl talking but I lack the theory in how to stir it in any direction I want.

For example, you want to build deep connection with her about things she doesn't talk about with most people. Small things have volume.

And keep in mind, let there be awkward pauses for few seconds. You might get uncomfortable and you might be compiled to fill this awkwardness. DO NOT. If you get uncomfortable remember she is most likely are (your uncomfortableness)^3. Let her do that.

That too. Let women do most of the talking. People love talking about themselves and love it even more when the other party is listening. So while she talks, actually listen. Don't be all up in your head thinking what to say next.
Listen.

Designs wrote:
Do not agree on everything she says

I think what he means is don't be afraid to disagree with her. And don't. If you have a different stance of a given subject, voice it. Don't kiss her ass and never say what you think she wants to hear.

Designs wrote:
3- This could be a genuine thing between you and her. Be genuine, do not think of strategies a lot. Instead, just enjoy it. And by the sound of it, you got that part where you said you have her not talk about her previous boyfriend. Good.

Lastly, again this could be genuine things, do not rush it. do not sexually escalate if it doesn't feel right. Some PUA say, you should object the first time and tell her even if she didn't hint she wants to get laid. So next you have higher chances of getting laid.

I am very invested in this story, I would like to see how it plays out.

Best of luck


Right. Don't talk about ex boyfriends. At all. Do escalate however. It never "feels right" if you're not used to dating a lot. That's why most guys end up going on 3 dates without even attempting a kiss. There is no perfect moment and it's in the name itself -> "Escalation". It's something that starts off gradual.

That said, always sit next to her. It can be either a 90 degree angle or right next. But never across from each other.

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 Post subject: Re: First date
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:35 pm 
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Update: ( no judging please, I know I'm weak here and honestly need help cause I'm going crazy)

She got back from vacation, we texted a bit and she said it's a shame she has plans with her family over the weekend but we could do something the coming weekend (I didnt even mention us getting together, just me wanting to party that weekend). Texted a bit more, some initiative acutally from her which doesnt happen much.

I called her 3 days later on wednesday, it was almost 10pm and she didnt pick up. Didnt text the next few days until Saturday evening.
" Hi I couldn't call back...everything ok with you? you coming with us on May 5th?"

My buddy is organizing a pub crawl on that date.

I texted her the next day that I'm not sure yadda yadda and that me and some friends will do some outdoor stuff next weekend. She says she is busy but will be there on May 5th.

Also told her no problem not calling back as I was busy anyway and just wanted to chat a little.

I told here that we will postpone going out and we may see each other May 5th, we may not because of her history of flakiness.
I know this was harsh, I didnt include any smileys or anything and she hasnt texted back.


Now here is my problem: I have a huge crush on her and may go crazy in those two weeks without some certainty. Is there any way for me to contact her and not come off as a chump? I wont apologize obv but was thinking about sending a voice message tomorrow (she is really into those) saying I just had a terrible week( really did) and I still wanna see her.

Any ideas?

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 Post subject: Re: First date
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:56 pm 
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Show Stopper wrote:
I wont apologize obv but was thinking about sending a voice message tomorrow (she is really into those) saying I just had a terrible week( really did) and I still wanna see her.


Definitely don't do that.

OP, here's a question. Does this woman seem like she's interested in you?

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 Post subject: Re: First date
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:22 pm 
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She talked about going out for drinks and to the movies just a couple of weeks ago.
Also told my buddy how I am " a real guy"

And like I mentioned, last week she told me we could get together this weekend...without me bringing it up.


And BTW she just responded to my text: "oho somebody is throwing the shade :shock: "

literally this text...

My move now?

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